AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

over an extremely small (1.5k) sample size. I have decided I will post all significant AA/KK hands I play on this site for the next 1k hands or so, withholding whether they were winners or losers.

I'm having an argument right now with another 2+2er -- is it better to call or fold to the minraise on the river? No strong read on Villain -- only played about 60 hands together, and in that time he is 38/0, with a postflop aggression of about 1.5.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 ($115.50)
MP2 ($86.85)
MP3 ($98.50)
CO ($11.35)
Button ($94.95)
SB ($291.95)
BB ($102.80)
Hero ($150.05)
UTG+1 ($95.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $4, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($12.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $8</font>, MP2 calls $8, BB folds.

Turn: ($28.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, MP2 calls $10.

River: ($48.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $40</font>, Hero calls $20.

Final Pot: $128.50

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

was the less than 1/2 pot supposed to be a blocker?

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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was the less than 1/2 pot supposed to be a blocker?

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It was an ugly look MR. I don't have a flush, but my hand is real good and stuff, please go away now, or look me up with a worse hand, OK?

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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It was an ugly look MR. I don't have a flush, but my hand is real good and stuff, please go away now, or look me up with a worse hand, OK?

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Okay, other suggestions for playing the hand? Pot flop, 2/3 pot turn, 1/2 pot river, fold to a raise on any street? If so, why is my line much worse than that? If anything, I would think the turn is where you should direct the question -- I bet only 1/3 pot there.

If I know the player to be aggressive and attentive, then this line sucks. However, this player is pretty loose and passive from what I've gathered. I don't expect him to play back at me without a hand, but I don't want to get too invested with an overpair on such a coordinated paired board.

How would you play it?

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

w/o a read i c/c turn, and c/f river...

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

Bet like you mean it or check the turn, depending on what you have seen of this guy.

Your turn bet is very obvious to any guy who has you beat/has the non nut flush, but wants to make someone money off you/make it to showdown.

I really can't think of any spot where 1/3 pot bet on the turn is optimal.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

Overbet the flop and play cautiously if called. Like, $15 or $20. Ideally you want to take the pot right there. You have two pre-flop callers who could have anything and this flop could definitely have helped them. With what types of hands do people call early position raises with in position? Usually small pairs and suited connecting cards (or a suited ace). Here, any pocket pair of eights, sevens, or fives has outdrawn you as would 7-8 suited. A pair of sixes would now have an open-ended straight draw. With big pairs in EP you generally want to either get all the money in heads up pre-flop or, in your case here, you make a large bet on the flop, if you're called, you try to check it down from there because your opponent has probably outdrawn you. That's why position is everything. He probably knows you have a big pair, but you have no clue as to what he has. It can be tough to play the big pairs in EP in NL unless you get a great flop.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

Your weak turn and river bets invited this. Who knows if he has you beat or not. You sure disguised your hand well. I could see a thinking villain making this move with a flush, A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or anything in between. As played you probably have to puke and call (or is it call and puke).

Bet the turn hard, if you get called check/call1/2 pot or less river bet. If you get raised, fold. You want a cheap showdown (which is what I think you were attempting to accomplish), but you played this hand like a donk who just got dealt AK after watching 10 hours of the WSOP.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

I'm either checking the turn, or making a real bet...this 1/3 pot bet is real bad IMO.

When i've got KK UTG i'll limp reraise with it generally or i'll make a bigger opening raise to try to fold out trash hands.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

Fold the river, and dont bet it and then fold ... check and then fold.

The flush is there, full house is there, and a straight is there. You beat none of that. In fact, your bets make it pretty clear that you dont beat anything, yet you still call the minraise.

If AA and KK are your biggest losers then just push all-in preflop ... you wont fail to make more money that you currently are ... and you might be surprised at the results

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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When i've got KK UTG i'll limp reraise with it generally or i'll make a bigger opening raise to try to fold out trash hands.


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Sounds like someone is bitter about some recent bad beats...

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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Bet the turn hard, if you get called check/call1/2 pot or less river bet.

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Why? With this board, a healthy bet on the flop tells him if he's beat or not. Then, you want him to get even more agressive after the flush card comes? If the guy wasn't there yet, he sure as hell is there now. In fact, all the guy needs is the bare ace of clubs and he can push now and make your decision very difficult and you just wasted a bunch of money. With a board like this, it's better to be conservative with the kings in EP.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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w/o a read i c/c turn, and c/f river...

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To me this line seems even worse than my crappy line. If my plan is to c/c, c/f, why not just c/f the turn?

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

No, your line is much worse.

Compare how much info this guy has about the strength of your hand vs how much you know about his.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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I really can't think of any spot where 1/3 pot bet on the turn is optimal.

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I agree that the 1/3 pot bet on the turn isn't optimal, though there are times when I do this (for example, this is a line I *rarely* take here if I had the king of clubs, since Villain is passive and even if he calls I have given myself decent odds to hit a flush).

Villain has shown himself to be loose passive and not throw in many (well, any) raises if somebody has bet before him, so I figure if I bet and he raises, he's ahead and I insta-muck. If I bet and he calls, he's probably still behind, but I'm still not too excited about inflating the pot.

I guess the trouble I have is this: I don't want to inflate the pot too much, especially since one of the worst cards I could expect hit on the turn, but I have no reason to believe that I'm beat yet. Checking says to everybody: take this pot away from me. Betting 2/3+ pot makes the pot bigger and harder to get away from -- if he calls the turn, what do i do? Betting 1/2 pot seems best to me, though I have to worry about how a thinking player would interpret that bet (I have no reason to believe that loose/passive calling station is really a great thinking player).

The 1/3 pot bet was probably influenced by my recent bad run with big pairs and the scary board -- it was too timid, but I also don't think checking is optimal, nor betting more than 1/2 pot.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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Fold the river, and dont bet it and then fold ... check and then fold.

The flush is there, full house is there, and a straight is there. You beat none of that. In fact, your bets make it pretty clear that you dont beat anything, yet you still call the minraise.

If AA and KK are your biggest losers then just push all-in preflop ... you wont fail to make more money that you currently are ... and you might be surprised at the results

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(1) I'm not open-pushing KK UTG for 150BB.
(2) I do beat 99, JJ, QQ, A8, any single high club. All of these check behind or call a small bet except for a high club, which will either give up or bet the river if checked to.
(3) The flush is there, but the only straight that is there is 69 or J9 -- both possibilities, but they seem unlikely to me. I would have heard from 69 sooner, and though J9 is double gutted, I would expect it to be suited (giving it the flush on the turn) or to *not* raise me on the river, but to throw out a value bet if I check.

Any raise bigger than a minraise I fold -- in fact, I should have folded to this minraise, but then I thought, "hmmm, 5.5 to 1 -- I may be ahead 1 time in 6, right?" probably not. I imagine I'm ahead at best 1 time in 12.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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Bet the turn hard, if you get called check/call1/2 pot or less river bet.

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Why? With this board, a healthy bet on the flop tells him if he's beat or not. Then, you want him to get even more agressive after the flush card comes? If the guy wasn't there yet, he sure as hell is there now. In fact, all the guy needs is the bare ace of clubs and he can push now and make your decision very difficult and you just wasted a bunch of money. With a board like this, it's better to be conservative with the kings in EP.

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Being called on this flop gives me no idea where I am. He could be drawing to a MYRIAD of hands or be way behind. This is TOUGH spot for KK.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

The fold on the river is tough... T8 is also a likely holding, as if JJ/TT/99/88 ... KK and QQ probably would push sooner. 2 pair is very likely holding. I am aww struck by how much credit we give to oppenents.

I think I bet full pot or more on the scary board (pay for his draw). I get called, I either Bet pot (or whatever your norm is.... don't fluctuate your bets, except when I am at the table). The villian could have a huge amount of hands AT is another one, w Ac and figures he just hit top pair. The call is tough on the min raise, but I think 1 in 5 is fair to say your ahead, not 1 in 12. I always raise more out of position, then in position, so pre flop I go $5-6.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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No, your line is much worse.

Compare how much info this guy has about the strength of your hand vs how much you know about his.

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Fine, he has more info about my hand and I know less about his. How does c/c, c/f improve this?

(1) If Villain is drawing, he gets infinite odds to hit (though I guess if my plan is to c/f any river, this doesn't matter?)
(2) If Villain is ahead, I put money in on the turn with the sole intention of folding the river if i don't catch my 2 outer (bad).
(3) If Villain is behind but for some reason decides to read my turn &amp; river checks as weakness (which of course would be crazy to do), I call the turn with the sole intention of folding the river.
(4) I have no additional information about his hand, and now he perceives my hand to be weak. This just compounds the problem.

With this line I let Villain off the hook with drawing hands, and I let him bet me out with hands that I'm ahead of, but instead of just folding to a bet on the turn I'm willing to add a little to the pot before folding on the river? Doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not saying 1/3 pot is a good turn bet. I agree it sucks. But I don't think c/c, c/f is better.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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The fold on the river is tough... T8 is also a likely holding, as if JJ/TT/99/88 ... KK and QQ probably would push sooner. 2 pair is very likely holding. I am aww struck by how much credit we give to oppenents.

I think I bet full pot or more on the scary board (pay for his draw). I get called, I either Bet pot (or whatever your norm is.... don't fluctuate your bets, except when I am at the table). The villian could have a huge amount of hands AT is another one, w Ac and figures he just hit top pair. The call is tough on the min raise, but I think 1 in 5 is fair to say your ahead, not 1 in 12. I always raise more out of position, then in position, so pre flop I go $5-6.

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River is a clear fold. Look at the action. This fish is a weak, loose, passive player. He isn't bluffing, and he isn't raising with a hand that can't at least beat trip sevens. Its a milking bet.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

The major advantage you get vs this guy is when you check the turn, you are typically going to find out exactly what this guy has.

You are also losing value vs his range when you bet so small, and are in a gross spot on the river when he just calls.

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

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The major advantage you get vs this guy is when you check the turn, you are typically going to find out exactly what this guy has.

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Okay, so how do you interpret the following actions, and what is your response to each?

(1) Villain checks behind. Villain has ...
(2) Villain bets 1/2 pot. Villain has ...
(3) Villain bets pot. Villain has ...
(4) Villain pushes. Villain has ...
(5) Villain minbets. Villain has ...

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

Would it be prudent to push 1.5xpot to give insufficient drawing odds to made hands?

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

on the flop I mean

Re: AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL
 

check he has a draw or a weak made hand.

1/2 pot you are beat.

I seriously doubt this guy bets pot or pushes. If he does I fold, but don't have a great read on what he has, since it is a funky move.

If he minbets you are good, 8x most likely, other made hands making a feeler bet. small percent of the time he is drawing, or has A club.