How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

Well, haven't done one of these in awhile. I took a short hiatus from poker while on a vacation, and when I came back I started playing more MTT's, with SSNL cash games going on in the background. I've been running very well in the MTT's, but suffering death by a thousand cuts in the cash games. I was running well in cash games when I was doing these so maybe doing one will help me to turn the corner. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I've heard from a pollmaker on another forum that the last update fixed the problem we had with questions coming up in a random order. I will number the questions just in case, so do them in order 1-6. As always, comments and discussion are welcome. I think this hand is a common situation, and I would like to hear ideas as to how to play it better. Play along in the hand, take the quiz as you go.

.50/$1 NLHE 6-max Hero has $100 and Villian covers.

Reads on villian who is the BB in this hand: Villian has Hero slightly perplexed. You noted 4 hands he played when he first sat down and started licking your chops. He PFR'd UTG with K7s and Q9o. He limped UTG with J3s. And he called a standard PFR from CO with 95s. These hands took place in the first 15 minutes he was at the table. However, in the last half hour he seems to be playing pretty solid ABC poker. Nothing crazy pre or post flop. You note he continuation bets always. Here's how the hand starts:

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
4 folds, Action is on Hero....

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

ANSWER RATINGS:










Thanks for playing along. Comments welcome. Answers are rated on a scale of 0-10, 0 being donkorific, 5 being average, 10 being 42it-ous. (ratings in parenthesis).

Question # 1 --

(3) complete - Inferior IMO
(8) raise <=$4 - A good plan for the hand would be to raise pre-flop, and continue with a bet on most flops and hopefully take it down right there. If you hit a set, so much the better.
(7) raise >$4 - I suppose you can make a case for $5, probably not much more though.

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Question # 2 --

(0) Fold - easily within 5/10 guide for pp's so don't fold.
(10) Call - call, flop a set, win a nice pot.
(1) Raise - Pissing contests OOP are -EV.

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Question # 3 --

(4) lead - I like this least. If he calls, where are we? and what do we do on the turn?
(7) c/r - snaps off continuation bets. If he calls, we have to be done with the hand.
(6) c/c - lets him know we've got something. If it's a continuation bet, it usually shuts him down and a lead on the turn will pick up the pot. Unless the turn card hits him, in which case we lose a bit more than we should.
(6) c/f - no set, no bet.

Do we even want to contest this pot? Dry flop that almost surely missed villian, unless he holds a pp. Kind of the crux of this quiz. Contest this pot, or not?

--------------
Question # 4 --

(3) Check
(6) <$7
(7) $7-$11
(6) $>11

I like a bet here. The 5 is a good card for us. It's a value bet against overcards like KQ or AJ. And, it could fold out some hands that beat us like 44, 77, 3x or maybe even 9x if he believes we have a 5. A moderate sized bet is best, IMO.

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Question # 5 --

(10) Check - He's got something and we are beat. Putting anything more in the pot at this point is chip spewing.
(0) < 2/3 pot bet - Easy call for villian.
(2) > 2/3 pot bet - Hard for him to call a push, but EV of that should be negative longterm.

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Question # 6 --

(0) 8% - Nope.
(10) 12% - This is correct. You flop a set just under 12% of the time.
(0) 15% - Consider getting these basic percentages down pat.
(0) 19% - If you are around to see the entire 5 card board, you end up with a set 19% of the time.

--------------
Hand results: Hero checked the river. Villian checked behind. Villian held TT and won the pot. Thanks for playing along. Comments welcome.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

Same answers as you, for the same reasons with the exception of the first action.

22 OOP I'm not at all interested in building any sort of pot without a set. It has no other value whatsoever. For bet/cb to be correct then I think you have to accept that you'd do this with any two cards. Viable strategy from the button but not the SB IMO.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

This isn't the type of hand I like to build a pot with OOP against a solid player who may have some loose tendancies, which is why I prefer just completing p/f, and just c/cing the flop and leading a safe turn.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

I think the flop is most intresting here. Definitely read dependent. How often will villan c-bet with missed overs? What hand ranges do you put villan on?

I think I like the c/c lead turn play the most. Then again, I rarely c/r ever, so maybe I'm missing something.

I assume we are c/f-ing the river, correct?

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop is most intresting here. Definitely read dependent. How often will villan c-bet with missed overs? What hand ranges do you put villan on?

[/ QUOTE ]

He said villian always cont. bets so hes betting here 100% of the time. I will lead in this spot on occasion a bet from villian is garaunteed, i want to see if he likes his hand enough to raise my bet.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

I think folding to the preflop raise is correct.

I'm not the biggest advocate of the 5/10 rule to begin with, but I think it has zero bearing in this case. It's an implied odds rule, and you're in a hand against a PFR who can have anything, and you're OOP. There is no guarentee you're going to win more than 5 bucks if you flop a set. The implied odds just aren't there.

Furthermore, you're OOP with a garbage hand in a raised pot. Which leads to all kinds of awful, tricky, negative implied odds situations like this one.

Why even bother?

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

I also like leading the flop or check/raising. Check/calling is passive, and passive is bad.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

I'll add on a more general level I think this sort of fancy play without a strong read is generally -EV at NL100. Check raises wih air and other FPS bluffs should be generally applied defensively. For example if someone has called your preflop raise OOP three times and each time has led into you on the flop causing you to fold then raising the fourth time is a strong move even with air. You need to reassert control over the table.

However in this hand the play is only there to take the money in this pot with no other considerations. I think that sort of play comes more from a desire to be clever than it does from longterm EV. Look at our read on the opponent. He could be loose and poor, or strong and making an image play early on, or he could be average. Nothing clear cut enough for us to be able to play him for a chump. These moves are vital at higher levels but generally a weak idea at SSNL.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

I think I like to check-raise preflop with the intention of taking it down right there and not investing anything more into it. The trouble about playing against these guys is that they can really have anything, so NO overcard is a "safe" overcard.

I don't want to see 3 streets of play, so I am desperately hoping to take it down immediately, folding to a 4-bet.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

I like the preflop raise and prefer to over bet than make a std raise. I want villain to fold here rather than play OOP, but I think the weak line is to complete on grounds of pot management. This may be another Reubenism I carry in my head but I like to charge people to play me when OOP. I think the raise also gives me the initiative which is important when you have decided to play a hand OOP. Having established I have strength, a C-bet by me will often take down the pot.
I'm not planning to play this hand for implied odds of a set either. So I struggle to call if I'd ony completed, especially with just 22.

Do we contest this pot once the flop comes down? I think without raising it preflop you should nearly always check/fold a flop like this. Your hand cant take any heat. As a preflop raiser I think we give ourselves an option to c-bet with a reasonable (normal) chance of success though.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the preflop raise and prefer to over bet than make a std raise. I want villain to fold here rather than play OOP, but I think the weak line is to complete on grounds of pot management. This may be another Reubenism I carry in my head but I like to charge people to play me when OOP. I think the raise also gives me the initiative which is important when you have decided to play a hand OOP. Having established I have strength, a C-bet by me will often take down the pot.
I'm not planning to play this hand for implied odds of a set either. So I struggle to call if I'd ony completed, especially with just 22.

Do we contest this pot once the flop comes down? I think without raising it preflop you should nearly always check/fold a flop like this. Your hand cant take any heat. As a preflop raiser I think we give ourselves an option to c-bet with a reasonable (normal) chance of success though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to post something similar but couldn't put it any better. That's exactly my line, for the same reasons.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

I haven't read all the responses, but I really like a check raise on this flop. If villain stays in then I shut it down and move along since I have the lowest possible pair OOP. I think putting any chips into the middle after that would be spewing. Glad to see you bring one of these back. Each one has been very good for generating discussion.

Wow, I got a shout out! I am honored since I am a set miner at heart [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want villain to fold here rather than play OOP, but I think the weak line is to complete on grounds of pot management. This may be another Reubenism I carry in my head but I like to charge people to play me when OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, you like building pots with marginal hands OOP?

You need to rethink this.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

I like leading or check-raising that flop. I want to win the pot now. I might check-call, lead turn if I have a hand like 88 or 77, but 22 is just too vulnerable to try to take this hand further than the flop, IMHO.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]

easily within 5/10 guide for pp's so don't

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here is that his raising range from the BB against a lone completing SB is probably much wider than usual if he's got some aggression in him. Say he raises 20% of the time in that spot, the 5/10 rule doesn't apply because you are getting nowhere near the implied odds against what is essentially a semi-random hand.

Countless times I've flopped sets in this kind of HU situations, only to find out villain would oblige a CB, maybe a turn CB, but no more.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

I hate building pots with marginal hands. I don't play marginal hands. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I do play 22 and I think of it as a hand with two ways to win, it can steal (as can any hand) or it can hit a set. I might 'get caught OOP' with 88 thinking its the best hand on a ragged flop but I dont see any inherent value in 22 unless it improves. That said...

I raise preflop to take the pot there, to set up a steal on the flop or to build a pot for the 12% of times I hit a set and want a bigger pot to play in. I fold to a reraise pre flop, I fold to a reraise on the flop without a set, and if I get called on the flop, I figure I'm beat and just check/fold the turn.

I recognise though that this thinking may be wrong, I'm not sure why though. If someone could explain why this is so bad I'd appreciate it. I'm still just learning this game so I'm not being a smart ass or sarcastic in this post, I just don't get why my line is bad.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]

I raise preflop to take the pot there, to set up a steal on the flop or to build a pot for the 12% of times I hit a set and want a bigger pot to play in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a better way to steal the pot is to call the raise and check raise any flop. Unless villain has the goods, he will lay his hand down. Pre-flop raising wars OOP are very dangerous and I tend to avoid them without AA or KK.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

Check-raise flop is defenitely the way to go here IMO. If you get called or reraised, you know your pair is no good and go into check-fold mode.

Also, I only complete preflop.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

Alot of interesting comments. Some thoughts:

--This was actually an MTT hand that I played when we were down to the final 3. I limp/called a raise preflop, and chose a c/r on the flop, and had to fold to a push from villian who showed his TT afterwards. I modified the hand for the quiz. FYI, action Hero takes in the quiz isn't alway optimal. (The villian hands described in the reads were hands he had played earlier in the MTT when we were at the same table. That table broke up and when we met back at the final table I was perplexed that he was still around. FWIW, I took 2nd and he won. And then 2 nights later in the same small (~70 player) tourney, I took 2nd to him again. So he knows his way around the felt a little bit.)

--I'm somewhat surprised with the ratio of raisers vs. completers preflop. I was hoping some of the 6-max heavy hitters like TWP, Ghaz, Xorbie, etc. would chime in with their thoughts. I've kind of evolved from a completer to a raiser in this spot (even though I play full ring, and folding to me in SB when I have a small pp might come up once in a blue moon).

The advantages of raising are that we may take it down right there, or that we are the aggressor in the hand and can take it down with a bet on the flop. And if we hit our set, the pot has a little something in it. 22 isn't great, but it's ahead of all but 12 hands right now, so we are probably best and aren't we supposed to bet when we have the best hand?

--I can't see folding preflop to villian's raise as some have chosen in the quiz. We know he's going to CB. If we hit a set, we can count on him adding to the pot almost automatically. If we c/c our set (on certain flops), he gets 4 cards to make a pair/2 pair hand, where we can get adequate $$$ back from him to make the $2.50 call worthwhile preflop. Plus, there will be times he has Q8 or AJ and fold to a flop c/r.

--Do we contest the pot is the other big question. And how do we go about it. Very often the flop will be such that we shouldn't bother contesting it at all in these situation. Draw heavy or J-A high probably just c/f. We have a dry board here, and he should be able to find a fold with overs or air if we c/r the flop and that's why I think we should contest it with a c/r. HU, one pair hands are often good, no matter the size of the pair.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

I hate raising 22 here, for a lot of the reasons mentioned in this thread.

I complete/fold with 22, or complete/call if I think I have implied odds on a set -- i.e., if the villain will bluff to the river, or if villain will put in a lot of chips if he hits a pair.

Raising this OOP seems silly to me, because 22 is absolutely useless on more than 85% of flops. You are very rarely going to have more than 2 outs if you miss, and your attempt to steal the pot on the flop is going to need to be much bigger because of the preflop raise.

Standards get lowered in blind battles -- which may help you get paid off when you have a set, but will also get you in very uncomfortable biggish pots where villain won't fold his middle pair because he doesn't believe you. How far are you willing to follow through with a bluff on a missed flop?

I see no need to play a pot here. Complete the SB. If he checks, lead out on any flop... for the size of the pot, a measly 2BB.

EDIT: for an example of how you can end up in an overly big pot with an underpair and no idea of where you are in the hand, see OP. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
--I can't see folding preflop to villian's raise as some have chosen in the quiz...[due to the 5/10 rule...]

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
--Do we contest the pot is the other big question....and that's why I think we should contest it with a c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

5/10 rule is nice for when you're thinking about implied odds. When you start getting FPS and splashing around with 22 OOP, suddenly the 5/10 preflop rule is irrelevant. You might as well be splashing around with any two.

You're in a situation where, if you get played back at, you know you're beat. So you're splashing around with air. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if you have 22 of 83, you're just bluffing into a vacuum. And thats why I don't like playing this hand to begin with.

If you think you have enough implied odds to set mine, then set mine. But don't set mine with the 5/10 rule AND start splashing around.

(FWIW, if you ARE going to get involved, I think leading or check/raising is best because it's aggressive. But folding is better than both.)

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

Skuzzy,

As you realize, a lot of the time you run this play you will flop nothing and have to fold to any resistance. Therefore, your own hand is irrelevant. You could be doing it with 27 just the same as 22.

22 has the advantage of occasionally flopping a set. But there is an inherant problem in your thinking. You are running this bluff because you want to win the pot uncontested, but you also want to build a big pot for when you hit a set. Well, you can't have it both ways.

On the other hand, why not run this play with JT? Now you have six cards that can give you a winner, not to mention the straight potential. And since it's headsup, kicker problems aren't much of a worry. Much better than running it with 22.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
Skuzzy,

As you realize, a lot of the time you run this play you will flop nothing and have to fold to any resistance. Therefore, your own hand is irrelevant. You could be doing it with 27 just the same as 22.

22 has the advantage of occasionally flopping a set. But there is an inherant problem in your thinking. You are running this bluff because you want to win the pot uncontested, but you also want to build a big pot for when you hit a set. Well, you can't have it both ways.

On the other hand, why not run this play with JT? Now you have six cards that can give you a winner, not to mention the straight potential. And since it's headsup, kicker problems aren't much of a worry. Much better than running it with 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]

EDIT: for an example of how you can end up in an overly big pot with an underpair and no idea of where you are in the hand, see OP. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

nh, sir. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
5/10 rule is nice for when you're thinking about implied odds. When you start getting FPS and splashing around with 22 OOP, suddenly the 5/10 preflop rule is irrelevant. You might as well be splashing around with any two.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's exactly what the 5/10 rule is for -- implied odds. We are calling $2.50 here. We flop a set 12% of the time, 7.5:1. 2.50 x 7.5 = $18.75. This is what we need to make to make the call worthwhile. There's $4.50 in the pot, we need $14.25 more from villian. We know he always CB's so we know we are going to get nearer that if he has air. If he catches a piece, we should be able to get above that easily. As it was played, he had an overpair to the board. If the board came 952 instead of 953, we should be set to make quite a bit here.

And I don't see any FPS here. We have a pair HU. If we c/r his potential flop CB, we are seeing if we have the best hand or not. If we don't, we will know it if he calls or raises. After the c/r we don't put any more money in the middle. There's not a ton of flops to do this with, but I think that this is one of them.

Very good comments from you Fink. You're making me think more about this hand.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
we should be set to make quite a bit here.

[/ QUOTE ]

ha!

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

Let me try to explain this a bit better. Not sure I did a good enough job.

My point is that you are mixing two concepts.

Using the 5/10 rule and set mining is very straightfoward math, which you wrote out nicely. It's easy to determine whether the situation is +EV or -EV.

When you start playing UI postflop, it's not straightfoward math. Now, you're playing some real poker. So it's much harder to figure out if it's +EV or -EV.

So my point is that if you think playing this pot UI is +EV, then you call the preflop raise because it's +EV and play the pot. If you think set mining is +EV, then call and set mine. But don't call and set mine because the 5/10 rule tells you to, and then go ahead and play the pot UI anyway. That's mixing two concepts.

Personally, I think playing this pot UI is -EV. If you think it's +EV then go ahead and play it. But justify playing the pot because it was +EV to begin with, not because of 5/10.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
My point is that you are mixing two concepts.....

But justify playing the pot because it was +EV to begin with, not because of 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I'm understanding your point. My error was justifying the call according to 5/10. Instead of saying you have the 13th best hand possible, call and play some pokah.

I know we call with pp's according to 5/10 preflop alot. And most often we c/f if we don't hit our set. But there are those cases where you end up playing poker after the flop without a set. For example, 66 on a 457 flop, 99 on an 842 flop, or TT on a 555 flop. Yeah, we end up mixing concepts in these cases, but how is that a bad thing? Are we just semantically off here?

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that you are mixing two concepts.....

But justify playing the pot because it was +EV to begin with, not because of 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I'm understanding your point. My error was justifying the call according to 5/10. Instead of saying you have the 13th best hand possible, call and play some pokah.


[/ QUOTE ]

22 is not the 13th best hand possible. My head hurts after reading that statement.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

For one thing, I don't it's a fair to compare the 22 situation in the OP as equal to the three examples you just gave. The 66 that flops an OESD is not UI. And the 99 overpair and TT boat have the advantage of you're either behind a bigger pp, or you're ahead. In the 22 situation, the PFR could easily have some garbage like 79o and still be ahead. The PFR could have anything, so he might have hit that board. That is a dimension that just isn't present in the 99 and TT examples.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, we end up mixing concepts in these cases, but how is that a bad thing? Are we just semantically off here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question that is hard to answer. I know that one of my biggest cash cows is big pairs that flop and overpair, while my opponent flops a smaller overpair. I stack these people ruthlessly, because they can't get away from their 99 overpair. So that would suggest that, yes, there is a problem with mixing the two concepts.

On the other hand, I would like to think that 2p2ers are good enough postflop players to not loose their stack every time their 99 runs into QQ and the flop comes seven high.

In the 99 situation, it's worth investing a bet (or check/raising, depending on opponent) to find out whether the opponent has QQ or QK. But in the 22 situation, I don't think it is, because it's not as cut and dry. Villian could have a bigger pair, missed overs, OR a piece of the board. The situation becomes murky, there is a smaller chance you're ahead, and I think it makes it a -EV situation which calls for a check/fold.

When the situation is more cut and dry, it becomes easier to play, and therefore is +EV.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
He PFR'd UTG with K7s and Q9o. He limped UTG with J3s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not very enthusiastic about calling here, for this reason. OOP and you have no idea what he has. When you make your set he can easily lay down his queen high, as opposed to a tight player that may be raising with AQ and doesn't want to let go of his overs just yet. Another problem is on that 953 flop, he could actually have a better hand than you! No matter what the board reads, you can't be too confident that you have the best hand. I don't see much value here.

Now, if you raise preflop, that changes everything. You will probably take it right there, and if not, you will get paid a lot more if you do hit your set. He has also defined his hand at least a little for you.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]


22 is not the 13th best hand possible. My head hurts after reading that statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, you're right. I knew it was 50/50 agst AKs. Assumed it was no worse than that vs all other non-pairs. Just ran it thru some simulations. 49/51 dog vs T6s. 47/53 vs 78s. Slight favorite over unsuited overs. Very very small edge to push. I stand corrected.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


22 is not the 13th best hand possible. My head hurts after reading that statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, you're right. I knew it was 50/50 agst AKs. Just ran it thru some simulations. 49/51 dog vs T6s. 47/53 vs 78s. Slight favorite over unsuited overs. Very very small edge to push. I stand corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Really, just wow. Good luck.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

To those who like limping with 22 PF as opposed to raising-

I can understand the desire to not play in a raised pot OOP with 22. But say we complete and BB raises. Aren't we calling most of the time anyway? Do you guys just complete/fold in this situation? I like being the aggressor in this situation, and raising seems best to me.

JMO.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

Personally, I will:

If villian is shortstacked (~50BB) I'll just fold. Unless they are really, really bad postflop.

If villian is not shortstacked (~75+BB) I will call if the raise is to 3xBB and maybe 4xBB.

Obviously it depends a lot on their postflop play. If I think I can stack them with a set if they hit any pair, I'm going to call. If they are tigher postflop, I'll just fold.

As for raising to begin with, I don't think this is a bad option. Personally, I rarely raise with small pairs, I try to see cheap flops with them. But it is rarely incorrect to take the betting lead, so raising to begin with is fine if you're a competant postflop player.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

i cf flop. sa/wb.

Re: How\'s your SSNLHE?: 22
 

PF here should be a raise IMO. And bet/fold the flop. Or just fold PF. 22 sucks HU OOP when villain is playing top 30% of his hands or more.