AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

I have played ~ 200 hands with MP2. Read is tight aggressive.

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

Main concern was MP2 and a c/r had had him lay his hand down twice earlier in the session. I thought I was behind when he re-raised.

Turn: (8 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Should I have represented a flush?

River: (10 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Ah Qd (flush, ace high).
MP2 shows Kd As (flush, ace high).
Outcome: MP2 wins 14 BB. </font>

At what point do I lay this hand down...or do I? <font color="white"> </font> <font color="white"> </font>

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

If he is a TAG, I would fold this PF or on the flop to the 3-bet atleast.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Cold-calling pre-flop with AQ is rarely a good idea, and even less so when a TAG raises. Given how you played it, the c/r was a good try, and you have to call the 3-bet with the backdoor flush and odds to spike your Q (which might well put you ahead). When the flush draw comes on the turn, you're obviously not going anywhere... and neither is he, so I don't think leading out is going do anything for you. It also presents him an opportunity to get another raise in if he's so inclined. The river bet was a good idea, and you're probably safest to call the raise... though I'm not sure what he could have that you're ahead of.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Its not a good idea to try catching a backdoor flush which is not the nuts when you need a 4-flush board.

You want to have a backdoor flush draw with 2 of the suit in your hand actually I would only see that situation as worth staying in even if I am not drawing to the nuts.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its not a good idea to try catching a backdoor flush which is not the nuts when you need a 4-flush board.

You want to have a backdoor flush draw with 2 of the suit in your hand actually I would only see that situation as worth staying in even if I am not drawing to the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's exactly 1 card that beats his flush, and no reason to think that villain has it until he raises the river. His play seems to indicate AK or AA, which leaves our Hero a favorite to win if the flush hits. There is 1 version of AA and 6 versions of AK, which means that he beats 5/7 of villain's likely hands.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

What you say is sort of true, but I was also generalizing my post so that he doesn't apply the backdoor flush conecpt in -EV situations.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

[ QUOTE ]
MP2. Read is tight aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop: MP2 raises....

This should have ended your hand right there.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

@Chris, what do you think about the back-door flush draw on the flop, is it worth waiting to catch it?

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Call preflop. Come out bettin on the flop..after you get raised call down until the river. Come out betting on the river...call his raise. The only reason I wouldn't check raise the flop is because of your read. I think you played the hand fine after that...it's just a tough beat.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

I think its a beat that can be avoided precisely because of the read.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

"Read is tight aggressive."

"At what point do I lay this hand down...or do I?"


Preflop.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Calling pf is the worst option. I'd lean towards folding here against a TAG opponent, 3-betting would be a distant second, and calling a very distant 3rd.

Other than that it was played well. Good flop check/raise and after getting it heads-up I'm check/calling down as well.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Barring the results, I think you played the odds ok post-flop.

But it's a great illustration of why you can happily lay down AQ pre-flop against a player with high raising standards. It's disheartening to call 2 cold with a hand that is at best slightly behind to JJ or at worst horribly dominated by AA, KK, QQ, AK.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

brichr:

I agree with most...fold preflop if you are unwilling to 3-bet. Deciding whether to fold or 3-bet, imo, is a function of how bad the UTG limper is (and whether MP2 knows this) and what range of hands would he raise here. If MP2 is aggressive preflop, than 3-betting is not bad at all. If I were in MP2--3 OTB-- and a super loose limps, and I have tighties to my left, I would raise a wide range of hands here. (KJo, 88, ATo, KTs, etc.) But the majority of the time, I muck.

Post flop is played well. Folding at any point post flop is bad, imho.

[ QUOTE ]
Should I have represented a flush?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, MP2 likes his hand, you are not pushing him off of his big Ace here.

--Rico

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Thanks to all for the advice.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP2. Read is tight aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop: MP2 raises....

This should have ended your hand right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely right.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Buy John Feeney's Inside the Poker Mind and read the chapter entitled Do you pass the Ace-Queen test?

People here could just tell you to fold AQo out of position pre-flop to a raise from a TAG but the book is excellent and I think you should read it anyway, even if you're playing micros, just because the concepts discussed are so good.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Al Mirpuri:

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Quote:
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Quote:
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MP2. Read is tight aggressive.


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Preflop: MP2 raises....

This should have ended your hand right there.


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Absolutely right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not solely directed to you Al, but to everyone who is saying "TAG raises, fold AQ." While I agree that I would probably fold here most of the time, I do not think 3-betting here is all that bad against a TAG raise. This is not an EP raise...MP2 is raising one limper 2 off of the button. Most TAGs (at least most 2+2 type TAGs) are raising a wide range of hands here. I understand that your position sucks, and that makes me lean toward a fold, especially if I did not know my opponent well. If MP2 were Clarkmeister, wouldn't you be giving up quite a bit by folding to his raise here? Am I all alone in thinking that a 3-bet is not a distant 2nd choice in the situation described?

--Rico

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

"A distant 2nd" was probably not the best choice of words in my post Rico. I agree that 3-betting is not that far behind a fold. My biggest issue was the cold-call though from anywhere but the BB.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

I fold this preflop, but then again I try to ditch AQo in a heartbeat for reasons as simple as the sun is shining.

To me the 3 bet on the flop means AK. And I give serious consideration to folding there.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

[ QUOTE ]
To me the 3 bet on the flop means AK. And I give serious consideration to folding there.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a VERY easy fold to a 3-bet. But there was just one raise in this case.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

I'd fold pre-flop to a tight raiser.

Rest of the hand looks fine, sucks that he had the K.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

[ QUOTE ]
If MP2 were Clarkmeister, wouldn't you be giving up quite a bit by folding to his raise here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, cause he's gonna make me lose even more by outplaying me postflop.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

[ QUOTE ]
To me the 3 bet on the flop means AK. And I give serious consideration to folding there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably think I'm gonna lose more often than not, but I likely have some outs and I could still have the best hand against an aggressive AJ or another AQ or even a flush draw like K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Nottom:

The real mistake would have been sitting at his table in the first place. 3-betting here or folding is minor compared to that mistake.

--Rico

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Meh, I don't mind sitting with a better player as long as there are plenty of fish to go around.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Nottom:

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, I don't mind sitting with a better player as long as there are plenty of fish to go around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was saying it in jest more than anything.....should have included a [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] .

--Rico

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

[ QUOTE ]
Al Mirpuri:

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Quote:
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MP2. Read is tight aggressive.


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Preflop: MP2 raises....

This should have ended your hand right there.


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Absolutely right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not solely directed to you Al, but to everyone who is saying "TAG raises, fold AQ." While I agree that I would probably fold here most of the time, I do not think 3-betting here is all that bad against a TAG raise. This is not an EP raise...MP2 is raising one limper 2 off of the button. Most TAGs (at least most 2+2 type TAGs) are raising a wide range of hands here. I understand that your position sucks, and that makes me lean toward a fold, especially if I did not know my opponent well. If MP2 were Clarkmeister, wouldn't you be giving up quite a bit by folding to his raise here? Am I all alone in thinking that a 3-bet is not a distant 2nd choice in the situation described?

--Rico

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a good tight aggressive player, meaning a winning aggressive player, not a weak tight predictable but still aggressive preflop player, folding is out of the question.

You mentioned me. Let's go with that, only it's not me, it's someone with my range of raising hands in that spot. AQ is simply too much hand to fold to a good player's raise there. Folding is out of the question. 3-betting is fine, as is calling. Which you prefer should be a situational thing.

But a good tight aggressive player will be raising the limper (even from MP2) with hands like ATs, AJ, KQo, KJs, QJs etc. And that's not even particularly wide. If I think the player in front is weak, and I read the blinds as tight, I might open it up to include hands like A9s, 77, KJo. AQo does very well against this range of hands, even out of position.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

All of what you say is true. In my experience with these games its much more likely this "tight aggressive" player isn't the type of player you are describing, and much more likely a person with quite rigid raising standards, most of which aren't things I want to be playing AQ against out of position. With the lack of a more accurate description of the raiser (i.e. Pokertracker say he has PFR-10% or soemthing like that), I would fold to a raise. In contrast, I would 3-bet myself in a heartbeat with AQ most of the time.

Re: AQo against a tight aggressive
 

Clarkmeister:

Thanks for the reply.

[ QUOTE ]
Folding is out of the question. 3-betting is fine, as is calling. Which you prefer should be a situational thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hard time with a cold call in this spot, but I imagine that I am often times pulling out the whooping stick when more a subdued approach might be better. What types of situations would you consider coldcalling as opposed to 3-betting.

The advantages of 3-betting are obvious to me, but what are the advantages of cold-calling. I can see if the bb is coming along no matter what, then 3-betting loses some of its luster. I also suppose that if the the weak UTG limper goes to showdown every hand, then 3-betting also loses some of its value. Perhaps a cold call would actually be more worrisome for the TAG than a 3-bet. .....I dunno. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

--Rico