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- - KK river fold (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=377570)

jason_t

11-13-2005 02:51 PM

KK river fold

The blinds are LPP but I don't have reads on the other guys yet.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls.

River: (9 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

sweetjazz

11-13-2005 02:58 PM

Re: KK river fold

Gutsy play but I like it. The only question is whether raising the donk is profitable, but I think so. A lot of times you'll see 97 or J7 or 44. Once he 3-bets, he either just hit his straight or has an 8. You're good here never.

einbert

11-13-2005 03:03 PM

Re: KK river fold

Today I was playing in a 10/20 6max game, and there was a player to the left of me who was loose and passive before the flop. His screename was Dano (name somewhat changed for his protection). Here are two hands that he showed down:

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, Dano calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Dano calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Dano calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Dano checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Results below:
Hero has Kd Ts (high card, king).
Dano has Ad Kc (high card, ace).
Outcome: Dano wins 5.75 BB.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, Dano 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Dano bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Dano checks, BB bets, Hero folds, Dano calls.

River: (8 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Dano checks, BB bets, Dano calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results below:
Dano has Qd Kh (one pair, kings).
BB has 7c 6h (two pair, sevens and sixes).
Outcome: BB wins 10 BB.

I think his preflop play in these two hands illustrates pretty well why I wouldn't fold your pair of kings on the end getting 14-1.

Nick C

11-13-2005 03:05 PM

Re: KK river fold

I probably would have been so confused by the river bet that I would have just called. I'm not claiming that's necessarily best, though.

Anyway, I suppose Villain had 77, J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], or an 8.

I wouldn't entirely rule out, say, T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or even 72o, but I do think you're probably beat.

SackUp

11-13-2005 03:08 PM

Re: KK river fold

How are these hands even remotely close??

Your guy showed zero aggression on the river. In jason's example the guy three bet him on the river.

I like the fold jason. I like the raise by you and worse hands will call here a lot of times, but unless the guy is a maniac then I don't know what you are beating that he 3bets.

shabamgoddam

11-13-2005 03:11 PM

Re: KK river fold

good discipline to fold to the 3-bet. most would call 1 more but i aggree you are never ahead here. the river raise is a bold play. i don't think he would have 3-bet w/o an 8 or a rivered str8. so the river raise play only costs 1 extra bet and his 3-bet can assure you he's ahead.

einbert

11-13-2005 03:16 PM

Re: KK river fold

[ QUOTE ]
How are these hands even remotely close??

Your guy showed zero aggression on the river. In jason's example the guy three bet him on the river.

I like the fold jason. I like the raise by you and worse hands will call here a lot of times, but unless the guy is a maniac then I don't know what you are beating that he 3bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

In one hand the guy threebet me OOP with KQo. In the other hand, the same guy coldcalled my raise with position with AKo. The point is that bad players, and the lower in limits you go the more this is true, do have a degree of absolute randomness to their play. My point is that this guy is gonna show something that logically doesn't make any sense whatsoever, more than 1 in 15 times. Especially at 2/4, where the degree of randomness is going to be a lot higher than at 10/20 in general.

einbert

11-13-2005 03:21 PM

Re: KK river fold

For those of you that think this river raise is difficult, I don't really understand your thinking. This player will be donkbetting a newly acquired pair of 7's or a pair of tens very very frequently. And the average 2/4 player is certainly not folding either of those hands to a raise.

When he threebets you, he holds J9 the vast majority of the time. Other times he will hold some type of boat or trip sevens. But I submit that you need to be ahead less than 7% of the time to make calling that last bet profitable. And every once in a while, for whatever reason, this player has decided to go crazy on the river with something that you beat. Maybe it's less than 7% of the time. It's probably close. But personally I am paying this last bet off on the 1/10 chance that I have run into the guy who loves to bet-threebet the river as a bluff with his busted whatever. Hell, at 10/20 I know this is a bluff more than one in fifteen times. Surely the "randomly bad" factor is greater at 2/4.

Evan	11-13-2005 03:22 PM

Re: KK river fold

I don't like it. Either call the 3 bet or don't raise. 14:1 is enough to call imo.

DMBFan23

11-13-2005 03:26 PM

Re: KK river fold

can anyone post an example of a hand like this where they won on a paired board when calling the river 3-bet against an unknown?

winky51

11-13-2005 04:13 PM

Re: KK river fold

I would just call. Look at the hand being player here.

If hes on a flush draw he isnt going to call the raise.
If he has an 8 your behing.
If hes an idiot calling with J9 on the flop he hit his str8.
If he has 77 your dead.

I really don't think raising is right on the river with that flop. His play seems to retarded to bluff here.

But since he raised I think you're behind. He is only reraising if you are beat. Unless he is a LAG idiot I don't see calling. Fine your getting 15:1 on the odds but your beat.

B Dids

11-14-2005 02:50 PM

Re: KK river fold

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it. Either call the 3 bet or don't raise. 14:1 is enough to call imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

/sign.

I think just calling the river bet is the best. Just based on what I know of players in games like this.

11-14-2005 02:57 PM

Re: KK river fold

player ahead defintally has solid pair and is trying to curve the betting, so raising is right, but when player three bets, he most likely will have the trips, yet 1 out of 15 times is enough for him to possibly have top pair, so a call was warrented.

paperboyNC

11-14-2005 03:42 PM

Re: KK river fold

Here's a good example. I was not the hero in this hand.

BB is 55/6/1.13 (Loose Passive)

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 4 folds, BB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.16 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has Tc Qc (one pair, eights).
Hero has 6s 6h (two pair, eights and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.16 BB.

jason_t

11-14-2005 03:45 PM

Re: KK river fold

I really don't understand what the point of this is. Should I post the results that I folded and he showed 88 to prove that my fold was correct? Of course not as that's not the point.

Plus that AF with that VPIP isn't that passive.

tiltaholic

11-14-2005 03:46 PM

Re: KK river fold

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a good example. I was not the hero in this hand.

BB is 55/6/1.13 (Loose Passive)

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 4 folds, BB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.16 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has Tc Qc (one pair, eights).
Hero has 6s 6h (two pair, eights and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.16 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

doesn't an agg. of 1.13 w/ a vp of 55 make him rather aggressive?

paperboyNC

11-14-2005 03:52 PM

Re: KK river fold

Another one.. BB is 59/9/1.90. A little aggressive, but not a maniac. I obviously had the nuts here. But even K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] had him beat.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.16 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

River: (20.16 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls $7.19 (All-In), Hero calls.

Final Pot: 24.56 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 2s Ts (one pair, twos).
Hero has Kc Ac (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 24.56 BB.

paperboyNC

11-14-2005 03:53 PM

Re: KK river fold

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't understand what the point of this is. Should I post the results that I folded and he showed 88 to prove that my fold was correct? Of course not as that's not the point.

Plus that AF with that VPIP isn't that passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

A poster asked for examples of unknown villains that 3-bet the river on a paired board with nothing.

MrEngenic

11-14-2005 04:01 PM

Re: KK river fold

Why don't you just call him. I don't like raising and folding to a 3bet.

callmedonnie

11-14-2005 04:12 PM

Re: KK river fold

I don't think anyone three bets here w/out trips or better. I have yet to call this line down and win.

jason_t

11-14-2005 05:17 PM

Re: KK river fold

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you just call him. I don't like raising and folding to a 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I like getting value out of my hands?

uw_madtown

11-14-2005 05:30 PM

Re: KK river fold

Sans reads I probably just call the river bet instead of raising. The problem is here that there ARE maniacs who will 3-bet you with garbage here (something like Tdxd) often enough that you can raise-call on the end profitably, but they're rare. Given that you have no read on MP2, it's almost certainly correct to fold to his 3-bet but you can't be certain -- so I'd rather just call so I get to showdown w/ my overpair AND get information on him.

mowz	11-14-2005 05:54 PM

Re: KK river fold

[ QUOTE ]
Sans reads I probably just call the river bet instead of raising. The problem is here that there ARE maniacs who will 3-bet you with garbage here (something like Tdxd) often enough that you can raise-call on the end profitably, but they're rare. Given that you have no read on MP2, it's almost certainly correct to fold to his 3-bet but you can't be certain -- so I'd rather just call so I get to showdown w/ my overpair AND get information on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Word. I dig the play with a good read though.

B Dids

11-14-2005 06:05 PM

Re: KK river fold

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you just call him. I don't like raising and folding to a 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I like getting value out of my hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given how difficult a fold feels here, I'm not sure 3-betting really is the best way to extract value.

If he's donking with jank here, how often is he paying off your raise anyway?

gopnik

11-14-2005 06:29 PM

Re: KK river fold

I don't like this at all.

How many hands that you beat would donk this river and call your raise? I don't really see that many. (you gain 1BB)

How many hands that beat you would value bet this river? (you lose 1BB if you raise)? I see a lot more here.

Plus, if you add the small chance that you got bluffed out of a big pot, I don't like this at all.

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