Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

Here's another post from SS that probably didn't get the attention it deserved.

Just like the other one I posted the other day, B WEBB (SS poster) and I agreed but the rest had different views.

I even disagreed with Entity [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] .
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666"> 2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666"> 1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666"> 1 fold</font>, <font color="red"> SB raises </font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, <font color="red"> UTG+1 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] , 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
<font color="red"> SB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="red"> UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666"> MP2 folds </font>, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12 BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="red"> UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666"> UTG folds</font>.

River: (15 BB) Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, <font color="red"> UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666"> SB folds </font>.

Final Pot: 17 BB

What's are your thoughts people?

Once again, I'll post my views after a few responses.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

I'd probably play it the same way, whether or not it's right.

Is pre-flop a fold, perhaps? Two bets coming back with a hand that is probably dominated by something like AQ, or QQ+. The only reason I can see to play this hand is for straight and flush value. I'd probably play it, but is that really enough here?

I'd probably call the river, but I think UTG+1 has a big pair. The only other thing I can see is a vastly overplayed AK.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

he should have raised preflop on his own. otherwise he played it right. the river call is probably -EV, but you never know without reads (especially after seeing him limp reraise). what did you disagree with?

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

I was going to mention the possibility of a raise before the flop. Brings me to a question I have regarding that: in general, how many people do you want in before you raise with speculative hands like 10-9, J-10, and Q-10 suited?

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

I'd love one of you to explain why this is right! i really can't see it!

Assuming a sensible 3-betting range (AA-QQ + AKs) from UTG+1 (even with the L-RR) our overcard outs are almost completely dead, and on the flop all we have is b/door flush and straight outs, 2.5 - 3 outs at most! Even with the 10:1 we are getting there it's not enough to call.

Mat

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

--blind response--

I think I find a fold on the flop, since it looks like spiking a Q or T won't do me any good.

I also fold the river for the same reason.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

That's an awfully tight 3betting range.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

I am having trouble justifying the flop call. We are getting 9:1 (possibly worse since there is a chance that the small blind might take it upstairs).

I find it hard to believe that our Q or T outs for top pair are good ... I would give them like, .25 outs each and I think .25 is generous. All I see are 2 runner runner draws .. giving them 1.5 outs each we have 3 maaaybe 3.5 outs (maybe less since some of the other players will almost always have some of our outs) and it seems like we need 14:1 odds to justify this call. I guess one could justify making these up in implied odds since UTG+1 isn't giving up his hand any time soon.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

See, this kind of [censored] is the reason i quit trying to participate in SS.

Ok, let's work it backwards:

river: Both the preflop raisers are still hanging around. You are behind AA-JJ, AQ, KQ, QJ, and a few other wonky things. You are ahead of TT, AK, and suited garbage if that's what the limp/reraise means. I don't think you're good anywhere near 1/17 times, especially with SB left to act behind you. Isn't raising better than calling here because you do not want an overcall?

turn: Hooray, we hit the part of our backdoor straight that we wanted so that when an 8 comes we take all the money. Getting 13:1 this is a straightforward call.

flop: The action sure looks like someone has an overpair. If that overpair is TT/JJ *and* the other guy doesn't have us dominated with AQ/AT/KQ/KT, we have 3 outs for our Q. I think it's generous to give us 1 out for our overcards here.

We have 4 outs that give us a 1-card straight, which will either kill any action we might get, cause us to chop, or maybe cause us to lose to JT. But let's call it 4 outs for now. We can add say .5 outs for when we hit the 8 *and* the J (which gives us the nut straight).

Lastly, we have a BDFD for 1.5, and a total of 7 outs. Getting 19:2==9.5:1 (but with the possibility SB will 3-bet behind us), it looks like this is indeed a peel.

preflop: I like a raise for value after all those limpers to buy the button. Once it's 2 more back to us, that sucks, but we have a hand that plays well multiway and the pot is big, so let's go.

In the heat of battle, i would certainly fold somewhere (probably the flop). Having done all this typing, though, it looks like the hand is a lot less marginal than i thought initially, except i still find a fold on the river.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

Rob is correct on this one. Well played postflop. The pot is just too big to fold with the amount of equity we have.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

I really can't see anything wrong with the way this was played. Could raise preflop, but I'd probably just limp. The LRR from UTG+1 screams big pair but with all the callers I think you have to see the flop. Flop gutshot plus backdoor flush draw give us plenty of outs to call the raise. Turn was not much help, and while we're surely beat on the river, the pot is too big to lay it down for 1 bet. Sorry, but I really can't see that I'd play it any differently.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am having trouble justifying the flop call. We are getting 9:1 (possibly worse since there is a chance that the small blind might take it upstairs).

I find it hard to believe that our Q or T outs for top pair are good ... I would give them like, .25 outs each and I think .25 is generous. All I see are 2 runner runner draws .. giving them 1.5 outs each we have 3 maaaybe 3.5 outs (maybe less since some of the other players will almost always have some of our outs) and it seems like we need 14:1 odds to justify this call. I guess one could justify making these up in implied odds since UTG+1 isn't giving up his hand any time soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I missing something here? I've seen several posts commenting on the backdoor str8 draw. It looks to me like an 8 gives us a T-high straight. That's 4 outs right there. Add in the BD flush and whatever our overcards are worth and I come up with 5-6 outs. Add in any implied odds and I think we've got a call on this flop.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

You missed the gutshot. I'd estimate we have like 5 outs here.

I can't see playing this any other way other then raising preflop.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

I said to 3bet the flop.


BTW.
There was a little discussion about preflop in SS and most said to raise.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

grunch...

nh, in fact this hand was played so well i got this warm feeling inside, kinda like if there was a total opposite of indigestion... that would be what i got when i read this

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
You missed the gutshot. I'd estimate we have like 5 outs here.

I can't see playing this any other way other then raising preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thankyou, yes that was what I was missing!

Somehow my brain was only seeing the 9TQ and not picking up on the 679T also giving us a 1-card gutshot!

As that was my last post before going to bed last night I'm going to call that a good example of why not to play tired!

Mat

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

Preflop is fine with a nice multiway hand like Q10s. We could probably even raise here and it would be a good decision. Either way, call or raise is good. Liekly to get 3 overcalls here.

Flop. A gutshot straight draw and a backdoor flushdraw. Hmm. And we aren't even closing the action and there are two raisers before us... I would fold it here personally but since Hero decided to call which I never do in this situation since I am thinking that the action will continue with a 3-bet yadda yadda. there is no way I'm going to fold the turn either.

Other than a somewhat questionable flop play I like it.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

*grunch*

Flop: I count to 8.5 outs (2 for weak OC, 4 for gutshot, 1.5 for BDFD and 1 for BDSD) and getting 20:2 this is a call.

Turn: Easy call.

River: I call here aswell, pot is too big to fold.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

Now I'm looking at this hand correctly, can't help wondering if the 4 outs for the gutshot need to be discounted quite a bit, if an 8 hits we split with any other T and lose to JT. I think we are only drawing to half the pot a lot of the time here with so many preflop limpers.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

Grunch*

Preflop - In late position QTs I would probably call initially, with UTG+1 Reraising though he must be in with a reasonably high pair, and trying to narrow the field down.

Flop - Even with a reraise, pot odds warrant a call to your draws.

Turn - Call as above

River - Ok I think I'm behind, but going to call anyway, only costing one bet, and the mistake of throwing in the towel, and forfeiting the pot is just to large.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

I have been meaning to start *grunching*, and this is a really interesting hand. Here we go ...

Raise pf. After the limp, I want to fold to 2 bets because I think we're going to have some tough decisions postflop. Pretty sure there's a line in SSHE about this - about tightening up in these situations and treating it as a coldcall. I'm at work so can't look it up right now.

BTW when I see someone limp reraise pf I have no idea what to make of it.

I want to reraise the flop b/c the pot is so big and it'd be nice to get rid of some opponents, but I think the call is probably better. There's a decent chance our overcards aren't good, anyway.

Double gutshot on the turn requires a call.

Crying call is good on the river.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

Grunch

I'm not sure I like calling PF when it comes back two more bets. Obviouslly, you might like playing this hand becasue if you hit your straight or flush it will be well hidden and probably pay off well. However, I fold PF.

If you continue I fold post flop since you overcard outs are probably compramised and you are pretty much looking at RR flush or straight for ~3 outs + overcards ~1.5 outs.

EDIT: Missed the 1 card gutshot. Cant complain now about the way the hand played other than pf.

Greg

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I like calling PF when it comes back two more bets. Obviouslly, you might like playing this hand becasue if you hit your straight or flush it will be well hidden and probably pay off well. However, I fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Hellmouth. This hand is why you guys go on 200BB downswings.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I like calling PF when it comes back two more bets. Obviouslly, you might like playing this hand becasue if you hit your straight or flush it will be well hidden and probably pay off well. However, I fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Hellmouth. This hand is why you guys go on 200BB downswings.

[/ QUOTE ]
o rly

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

Page 86 of SSH reccomends folding easily dominated hands if it comes back to you for two after limping, folding AJ in a multiway pot is the actual example given!

Mat

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

m-kay. Thanks for sharing that.

---

OP - This is a somewhat speculative hand that *really* benefits from table reads. Assuming good table selection, yadda, yadda, yadda...

3 limpers makes this a pretty good hand to play. This is a PFR for me as I don't really want any new customers; I'm happy with getting position on the ones I have. If you're perceived as a better player than the SB, you may not get the 3-bet BS and in any case, you've advertised some strength that may collar the LRR if you flop a draw.

As it played out, I think the LRR is intended to isolate SB with position as much as it is to value bet and as such, I don't think his 3-betting range needs to be anywhere near as tight as AA-QQ/AKs. I see this in Micros from PPs as weak as 77 and with the right reads, I think this may be correct if you think you can fold tighter players behind you.

SB flop bet looks like a donk bet into the raiser to figure out if he's got a PP or overs. Probably 88ish; I can't see an overpair slowing down. Suited overcards might donk this under the assumption that LRR missed the flop, but that's pretty speculative. UTG+1 flop bet looks like continued isolation, but he could very well be in the lead. I agree with the call, but I think this would be easier had we raised pre-flop.

Turn: picked up the OESD for 8 clean outs + our tainted/dominated pair outs. Clear call.

River: call/fold. Since SB went passive on the flop, I don't expect him to wake up on the river and too often in Micros, these hands are just folded around on the river to the aggressor when they don't improve.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Page 86 of SSH reccomends folding easily dominated hands if it comes back to you for two after limping, folding AJ in a multiway pot is the actual example given!


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember the example in question... your rendition suggests it was offsuit, in which case, I agree. If you're going to quote SSH examples, maybe you can find the ones pertaining to raising any two suited broadway (might be first-in only) in loose games.

In any event, this might be one of those cases Ed Miller talks about with regards to experienced players "taking off the training wheels" and adapting to table conditions. If I'm looking at the early limpers and seeing that they are "any two" guys, I'm going to treat the hand like I'm first-in with dead money already in the pot and outplay them after the flop.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

I don't know if 3-betting with this hand was the play. Even calling is questionable, unless you anticipate a lot of people that you can outplay. Trouble is a lot more marginal flops will hit then you can miss.

From the flop on, you play was great, you had the odds to coldcall that in position. The turn was fine as well seeing you picked up an openender. The river is a must call. I know the UTG+1 most likly has you beat, but the pot is huge and you have the top pair. I am guessing he has a set, but you never know.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

Yeah I agree. suited cards would suffer less from domination, and yes the example is AJo Still looking for one with suited broadways, thats the closest I've found so far!

TBH I think preflop here is very close, theres not much between folding calling or raising, you aren't going to be winning this one very often, but when you do it's going to be a big pot!

A solid read on UTG+1 could swing it one way or another.

Mat

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

I'll add myself to the list of people who play the hand the same way the OP did. Raising preflop would be good too, but I don't think it's a requirement.


[ QUOTE ]
I said to 3bet the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like a flop 3-bet here because there's basically zero chance that you currently have the best hand and your free card chances are unknown (but doubtful). If I had a solid read that all the other players were very passive, I could see it -- but we don't have any of that here.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Page 86 of SSH reccomends folding easily dominated hands if it comes back to you for two after limping, folding AJ in a multiway pot is the actual example given!


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember the example in question... your rendition suggests it was offsuit, in which case, I agree. If you're going to quote SSH examples, maybe you can find the ones pertaining to raising any two suited broadway (might be first-in only) in loose games.

In any event, this might be one of those cases Ed Miller talks about with regards to experienced players "taking off the training wheels" and adapting to table conditions. If I'm looking at the early limpers and seeing that they are "any two" guys, I'm going to treat the hand like I'm first-in with dead money already in the pot and outplay them after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just looked this up in SSH - first it says to "tighten up almost as much as you would if cold-calling a raise" when it's two bets back to you pf.

Then the example: you limp from UG, someone else limps, MP raises, button reraises, and BB calls. So with 10.5 small bets in the pot, and two players to act behind you, the recommendation is to call with pocket 8s (and the like), and fold AJo. (p. 86-87)

So there's no discussion of suited hands, but IMO we can call here with connectors JTs and up, and the only one gappers would be AQs and KJs. And isn't this hand a perfect example of folding pf so we don't have tough decisions postflop?

Very interested to see ranges for the rest of you in this situation.

I'm still not sure we shouldn't be reraising the flop.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
And isn't this hand a perfect example of folding pf so we don't have tough decisions postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or raising PF instead of limping? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I said to 3bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like a flop 3-bet here because there's basically zero chance that you currently have the best hand and your free card chances are unknown (but doubtful).

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought after preflop action, and flop action, against the hand ranges of these guys, that this board and my 3 bet was more than scary enough to make a free card likely.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I said to 3bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like a flop 3-bet here because there's basically zero chance that you currently have the best hand and your free card chances are unknown (but doubtful).

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought after preflop action, and flop action, against the hand ranges of these guys, that this board and my 3 bet was more than scary enough to make a free card likely.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well we don't have reads so I don't know what "these guys" are like, but UTG+1 limp+reraised preflop, then raised the flop. I don't see any reason to think he's not capping if you 3-bet -- he seems very interested in building a pot (AA/KK are very, very likely for him, IMO).

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

Page 271. SSHE. Flop play. Quiz 7.

Similarities? Differences? General thoughts?

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Page 271. SSHE. Flop play. Quiz 7.

Similarities? Differences? General thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was actually thinking about that problem when writing my responses and I had a feeling you might bring it up. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I think there are a couple key differences though:

(1) In that hand, you had A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and were trying to fold a preflop raiser who would be facing two bets cold. So if he has any A (which is likely) you'd be happy he folded. Here you have QT so you're hoping he folds specifically AQ or maybe KQ.

(2) The limp+reraise usually indicates a bizarre hand or a monster, and IMO it's much more often a monster. Ed mentions at the end of the problem:

"So, unless you are very unlikely to get a free card, you should probably invest the extra small bet and reraise."

Given the aggression that UTG+1 is showing here, I think the free card is unlikely. I'll admit this could be b/c I've been playing too much 6-max where the aggression is ramped up.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
TBH I think preflop here is very close, theres not much between folding calling or raising, you aren't going to be winning this one very often, but when you do it's going to be a big pot!

[/ QUOTE ]

What nobody has pointed out yet is that if you call the preflop 3-bet, the original raiser has yet to act, and the chances of him capping and you needing to spend 3 more bets to see the flop, instead of 2 more, are worth considering.

If it were me, I'd fold this one pre-flop after the 3-bet.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

Think of it this way:

We have at least 10% equity. We are putting in just one extra small bet than calling. Putting in 33% of the money with 10% equity. [33%-10%*1sb]
So we are investing only ~(.2) of a small bet extra, possibly .4 if capped. If he {or SB} caps 90% of the time, it costs us on average (.38) small bets more.

On the turn if we get a free card, we have 10% equity{assuming we didn't improve} and are granted that for free.
10% of a 14BB pot = 1.4BB = 2.8sb

Free card 10% of the time = 10%*2.8 = .28sb

So, if we get a free card only 10% of the time, 3betting the flop is only -.1SB.

Now. I gave your arguement a little leeway.

I assumed we only have 10% equity - we have more.
I assumed that someone drops out on the flop - if they don't we have an extra BB on the turn and we are only putting in 25% of the money rather than 33%.
And as I've said, I think we get a free card a little more than 10% of the time.


Let's stick with free card at 10%.
Let's have UTG stick around.
I did some pokerstoving and was surprised to see our hand actually has ~20% equity.

Investment = extra 2sb 90% of the time. 20% equity, putting in 25% of the money. ~(.1sb).
Payoff = Free card 10%*[20% equity of ~15BB] = .3BB = .6sb.

+.5sb.

Free card only 5% of the time is still +.2sb.
Free card only 2% of the time is still +.02sb.

This isn't even factoring in the 11% of the time, you'll make your hand on the turn + the ~30% of the time, cards that improve your hand [J,Q, [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] fall.

I like the 3bet.

Re: Another SS post....Micro views rock!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Think of it this way:

We have at least 10% equity. We are putting in just one extra small bet than calling. Putting in 33% of the money with 10% equity. [33%-10%*1sb]
So we are investing only ~(.2) of a small bet extra, possibly .4 if capped. If he {or SB} caps 90% of the time, it costs us on average (.38) small bets more.



[/ QUOTE ]

This stuff usually makes my head spin but I don't get this .2 figure at all.

We're putting in 1/3 of the money, so every 1sb from us results in an extra 3sb in the pot.

With 10% equity our share of this extra money is .3sb so we lose .7sb for every extra bet, no?


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