Leaking finding
 

Ok, I have found some examples of AA hands I am over playing. Still, having trouble seeing where I could play more hands, see more flops, and win more often - ugh....

Anyway, thanks for everything so far.

***** Hand History for Game 1952625591 *****
$0.5/$1 Omaha Hi/Lo - Monday, April 25, 20:19:53 EDT 2005
Table Table 36328 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button

Smokeman10 posts small blind [$0.25].
beavis69 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to beavis69 [ Td Jh 9d 9h ]
rhb393 folds.

UTG fold, there is a bet, a raise, and 3 calls - so i decide to see the flop due to the high potential of the hand for one more small bet, villian limper calls.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, Jd, 6d ] Pot=$6
>You have options at Table 27467 Table!.
SB checks, I bet - 4 callers.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ] Pot=$8.5
Again, I bet - 4 callers
>You have options at Table 36717 Table!.
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
I check, villian bets, folds to me, I make a crying call.
EricHoward shows [ Qc, 7c, Kh, Kd ] a straight, nine to king.
beavis69 doesn't show [ Td, Jh, 9d, 9h ] three of a kind, nines.
EricHoward wins $14.75 from the main pot with a straight, nine to king.
There was no qualifying low hand.


Nice 3 outer buddy.

Re: Leaking finding
 

Beavis - O.K., I'll bite. What does AA have to do with this hand/board?

You have a crummy starting hand, even for a free ride from the big blind. I think most would advise you to fold to the raise here, and I can certainly see a fold. Still, I think there is something to be said for defending your big blind. Thus I feel enigmatic about your defense of your big blind.

Then you flop middle set with a 4th nut flush draw and some back-door straight possibilities. Flopped middle set is not usually a very good holding and your flopped middle set is worse than usual because one of your outs for a board pairing is in your own hand.

If your 2nd round bet would knock anyone out who would end up beating you, it might be worthwhile. But after the raise seen by five of you, I don't think you're knocking out the straight draws, anyone with flopped top set, or anyone drawing to top two pair either - or probably even anyone drawing to top and bottom pair. You might knock out some low draws, and some back-door high draws or bottom set or bottom two pair, but maybe not - and you should kind of want those people hanging around anyhow, just in case the board pairs beneath your set of nines (or a miracle nine appears). But your 2nd round bet is not going to cause anybody who might do harm to you to fold anyhow. Therefore it's not a good bet, IMHO.

The turn is horrid for you. Doesn't help you at all but it might help others at the table. They're all drawing for somthing. (You too. You're drawing for four outs, the case nine or any of the three missing sixes. It's 40 to 4 against your making your draw on the river, ten to one, and you're not going to get that much out of the pot even if you do make your draw).

One could make a very strong case for folding to the bet on the third betting round. Basically I don't think you have favorable odds, even though you probably have the best current hand. But that typically will change on the river unless the board is paired or flushed by the turn - and maybe even then. But without even a straight yet possible, you should expect a change on the river - and the odds are about 10 to 1 you shouldn't like the change much.

As it happens, the river enables a spade flush, a straight, and another higher set than your set of nines.

Plain and simple, you missed your draw. Your flopped set of nines is junk. Still, it's hard to fault your crying call here, since nobody can raise behind you. I'd generally call this river bet too, fully expecting to usually lose, but catching a bluff often enough to make a call probably the correct move.

In my humble opinion, your worst move is betting your flopped middle set on the second betting round. One could make a very good case for check/folding the flopped middle set on the second betting round. Hurts to do it, especially after the pre-flop raise, but I think check/folding after this flop is best. (If your flopped middle set was kings or queens, there would be different considerations).

I think your second worst move is calling the turn bet.

Others here will think calling the pre-flop raise was your worst move, and I can see that point of view.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Re: Leaking finding
 

[ QUOTE ]
snip

As it happens, the river enables a spade flush, a straight*, and another higher set than your set of nines.

snip
Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

*Minor nit: 3 straights. Otherwise I completely agree with everything Buzz wrote (so what else is new?)

Re: Leaking finding
 

wow, now I am confused.

I love the great comments, but I have been told that....

My VPIP is too low - so what hands do I add?

And I am not going to showdown enough.

My Showdowns won when seen flops is too low.

UGH.

I used to think I was good at this game.

possibly the leak
 

[ QUOTE ]
My VPIP is too low - so what hands do I add?

[/ QUOTE ]

Beavis - I don't know what the acronym VPIP represents. Whatever VPIP does represent, how do you know it’s too low?

[ QUOTE ]
My Showdowns won when seen flops is too low.

[/ QUOTE ]

I’m not sure I’m interpreting what you have written correctly. Do you mean you’re not winning enough showdowns when you have seen the flop?

If so, you may be staying in the hand too often when you don't have a good enough fit with the flop.

What's a good fit with the flop?

Look at it this way: after the flop are there any cards you’d rather have than the cards in your own hand? If so, those other cards are probably a good fit with the flop. If you really like the cards in your own hand and wouldn’t want to exchange any of them for other cards of your choosing, then you probably have a good fit with the flop yourself. If you even really like one two-card combination, you probably have a decent flop fit in a loose game.

But you have to have sense, of course. If you really like the flopped middle set, you're doomed. (You might continue with flopped middle set, if you are sure you're getting good enough odds, but you shouldn't really much like continuing).

For the flop in the example that started this thread, 9s, Jd, 6d, if you could choose any four cards for your own hand, what would they be?

After a flop of 9s, Jd, 6d, I’d like to be holding the nut diamond draw, maybe as AdTd or Ad2d, and I’d like top set, maybe as JsJc or JsJh. Or a big wrap-straight draw plus the nut diamond draw would be nice.
(1) JsJcTdAd, (2) JsJhAd2d, (3) AdKsQsTd, or (4) TdQdJsJc. Any of those would be a very nice fit with this flop. Is that what you hold? Do you even hold any of the pertinent two card combinations? (JJ, AdXd, QT)?

I’ll answer for you.

No. You don’t.

You do hold the ten of diamonds, but for it to be worth much you need the ace of diamonds or at least a queen (preferably of diamonds) to go along with it. You do hold the jack of hearts, but for it to be worth much, you need another jack (preferably of spades to partly block the back-door spade draw). You don’t hold any of the two card combinations I’d choose to draw to this flop (if I could choose).

Try to play starting cards that will have two card combinations you might want to hold after the flop. A2, A3, AA, KK, AsXs, 23 are favorites of veteran Omaha-8 players. But you really like more than one of these in a hand. For example, AA23 is great and 23KK is playable. They’re both obviously better if suited and even better if double suited. A23, AA2, AsXs3 are strong three card combos that, if in a suited or double suited hand, tend to be found in premium hands. You like all of these before the flop because with them you often flop nuts that will hold up or a nice draw to nuts that will hold up.

But after this particular flop, none of those favored two-card combos works well anyhow, except the ace of diamonds suited to another diamond (ideally the deuce or ten for this flop). You’d have to devalue all of those nice starting combos after this flop and probably fold them (except for the suited ace of diamonds). It’s a moot point because you don’t have them this time anyhow. But neither do you have any combos I personally would want to play with this flop.

It’s not easy to fold the middle set of nines because you know sometimes it wins unimproved in Omaha-8 - and other times it improves to a full house or quads and wins. You’ve seen it win unimproved and you’ve seen it improve to win. Therefore it’s tough to fold it. But it wouldn’t be what you’d choose to play if you had your choice. Right? Be honest with yourself.

Bottom line: I think maybe the major leak in your game, if you have one, is your play after the flop. How do you correct it? You might try visualizing card combinations you’d like for any particular flop. Sometimes they’ll work out for you on the turn and river while other times they won’t. Ideally you’ll have more than one of them. But if you don’t have any of them after the flop, at least at a loose table, it’s time to get the Hell out of Dodge.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Re: Leaking finding
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I have found some examples of AA hands I am over playing. Still, having trouble seeing where I could play more hands, see more flops, and win more often - ugh....

Anyway, thanks for everything so far.

***** Hand History for Game 1952625591 *****
$0.5/$1 Omaha Hi/Lo - Monday, April 25, 20:19:53 EDT 2005
Table Table 36328 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button

Smokeman10 posts small blind [$0.25].
beavis69 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to beavis69 [ Td Jh 9d 9h ]
rhb393 folds.

UTG fold, there is a bet, a raise, and 3 calls - so i decide to see the flop due to the high potential of the hand for one more small bet, villian limper calls.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, Jd, 6d ] Pot=$6
>You have options at Table 27467 Table!.
SB checks, I bet - 4 callers.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ] Pot=$8.5
Again, I bet - 4 callers
>You have options at Table 36717 Table!.
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
I check, villian bets, folds to me, I make a crying call.
EricHoward shows [ Qc, 7c, Kh, Kd ] a straight, nine to king.
beavis69 doesn't show [ Td, Jh, 9d, 9h ] three of a kind, nines.
EricHoward wins $14.75 from the main pot with a straight, nine to king.
There was no qualifying low hand.


Nice 3 outer buddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Others have disagreed with this call, but you are getting over 10 to 1 on your money here. IMO your hand has enough potential to call and see a flop. It has nothing to do with 'defending', just a call based on odds.

Flop: Good flop IMO. True, the Jack in your hand reduces the amount of full house outs you have. But it also helps block someone else from having a higher set than you. You may proceed with your hand as if you had top set. Playing it is now the tricky part. A check raise with the intent to limit the field may be something to consider. But I'd bet out and hope someone raised me to help limit the field.

Turn: I'd check. You have lost some equity in the hand, with another low card and another spade. I'd check and either just call, or possibly even checkraise if it would limit the field. You want out flush draws, low straight draws, and low draws.

Just another viewpoint.

Re: Leaking finding
 

Buzz- I don't find fault in calling the PFR.

You can hit this hand hard with top set, a made straight, some good flush draws, or some combination of both.

Many times when you hit top set, or the nut straight - against this big a field you will have people raising and chasing the low when you have a good made high.

I don't think with the odds he is getting - folding pre-flop is a smart move.

There are too many hands that I would like to see here, where I don't think I'd fold it for 1 bet.

I think the rest of your analysis is right on, as 2nd set and a medicore flush draw is not something to go to war with, and should be dropped when the other flush and the low come into play on the turn.

Just some hands I'd like from this flop:


987
TT9
974
973
962
99x
876

etc, etc, etc.

Re: Leaking finding
 

Hate to nitpick, but dude had 5 outs, the 2 kings left and the 3 10s. Other than that, you played the hand well.

Multying up in O8, more than 2 tables at once, is very risky IMO, since you do see more flops than holdem.

Re: Leaking finding
 

[ QUOTE ]


Multying up in O8, more than 2 tables at once, is very risky IMO, since you do see more flops than holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH?????????

I know I see a lot less in O8 - I play it mostly for SnGs or MTTs now - but this doesn't seem right to me.

I know I am seeing LESS.

Re: Leaking finding
 

PREFLOP:
I think your first problem is calling the raise out of the big blind. Your hand looks pretty with a pair, consecutive cards and double suited. But Omaha/8 is a game of scooping pots and having the nuts or close to it. So let’s look at your JT99 ds in that light.

1) You have no way to make a low. About 3 out of 4 times some one will make a low by the river so those times you will only be playing for half the pot.

2) Your pair of 9s can flop a set. A set of 9s can not be the nut high hand. So after you flop a set you will then often have to improve to quads or a full house to win high. Even if you improve to 9s full you will often lose to a bigger full house.

3) Your and is double suited but they are only Jack high and Ten high flush draws. If you make a flush you will often lose to the nut or second nut flush. I am not a fan of drawing to less than the second nut flush unless it comes in runner-runner.

4) You can make straights. Five of them actually: Ace high down to a ten high straight. If your lower straights are the nuts there will be a low possible, so you will only be playing for half the pot. For some of the higher straights you may be facing someone with the nut straight.

Overall there are very few flops that will give you the nuts or a draw to the nuts for the whole pot. I would save a bet and fold preflop.

FLOP:
Your second problem is betting the flop. There is something to be said for betting a flop with two high cards to charge the lows for chasing their backdoor draws. But with your hole cards and this flop, you are not likely to end up with the best hand by the river. So you too are chasing. I would check and hope for a free card. Fold to a bet.

TURN:
Another bad card for you. It enables another flush draw and the low draws. Things are getting worse for you. A bet will not win the pot. Check and fold.

RIVER:
You’ve gone this far. You might as well make the crying call.


IMHO to succeed at Omaha/8 you have to not bleed off chips on marginal hands such as this.

Re: Leaking finding
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Multying up in O8, more than 2 tables at once, is very risky IMO, since you do see more flops than holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH?????????

I know I see a lot less in O8 - I play it mostly for SnGs or MTTs now - but this doesn't seem right to me.

I know I am seeing LESS.

[/ QUOTE ]

LESS [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].

Well, I play 6 handed, but even in 10 handed sitngos, I'll play anywhere from 25-30% of the flops. In holdem, I play 20-25%. I'm not a great holdem player though.

Re: Leaking finding
 

I still thinking folding this pre-flop is way, way, way to tight for the average game. You are getting about 10-1 on your call. I'll try and go reason by reason.

[ QUOTE ]
PREFLOP:
I think your first problem is calling the raise out of the big blind. Your hand looks pretty with a pair, consecutive cards and double suited. But Omaha/8 is a game of scooping pots and having the nuts or close to it. So let’s look at your JT99 ds in that light.

1) You have no way to make a low. About 3 out of 4 times some one will make a low by the river so those times you will only be playing for half the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That means 1/4 of the time your high will take the pot alone. Also - this pot is multiway, so taking half against 3-4 players is still good.

[ QUOTE ]

2) Your pair of 9s can flop a set. A set of 9s can not be the nut high hand. So after you flop a set you will then often have to improve to quads or a full house to win high. Even if you improve to 9s full you will often lose to a bigger full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many times when 9s will be the top set. Yes, there are times it will not, but holding a T and J, means your looking only at KK, QQ, and QQ showing in order for this to happen. I'd be very leary of AAxxx boards, but a lot less leary of KKxxx and QQxxx boards.

[ QUOTE ]

3) Your and is double suited but they are only Jack high and Ten high flush draws. If you make a flush you will often lose to the nut or second nut flush. I am not a fan of drawing to less than the second nut flush unless it comes in runner-runner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree for the most part. The flush should come into play here to give you extra outs - or when the flush cards are higher than yours. If the board has the A and K, or A and Q of your suit, you are now a lot more likely to have a flush worth playing. But for the most part - use them as backup outs.

[ QUOTE ]

4) You can make straights. Five of them actually: Ace high down to a ten high straight. If your lower straights are the nuts there will be a low possible, so you will only be playing for half the pot. For some of the higher straights you may be facing someone with the nut straight.



[/ QUOTE ]

If you make the nut straight - you will probably be taking 1/2 the pot against multiple people fighting for their low and non-nut lows, or lower straights. Yes you want to scoop, but I'm fine halving big multiway pots too. There are times you will get outstraighted, but I think those are few, and you will know when you are up against it, cause you will get raised with no low on the board.


Anyways - I think this is some good discussion, I would love to her your counter to my points, as well as what others have to say on the matter.

Re: Leaking finding
 

WOW - my first 2-3 rounds in a pokerroom SnG - I'm playing like maybe 15%-20% in 0/8.

maybe I'm weak tight, but it seems there are so many medicore hands that can just get you into trouble drawing to 2nd or 3rd nuts, and I hate playing most pots when there is a raise and I am out of position.

Re: Leaking finding
 

[ QUOTE ]
WOW - my first 2-3 rounds in a pokerroom SnG - I'm playing like maybe 15%-20% in 0/8.

maybe I'm weak tight, but it seems there are so many medicore hands that can just get you into trouble drawing to 2nd or 3rd nuts, and I hate playing most pots when there is a raise and I am out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, well sitngos are a different story. I prefer the cash games and here is why:

As I stated, when someone ahead of you puts in a bet to see the flop and you have a good hand, bump. If anything after the flop you may be giving yourself good enough pot odds to semi-chase. In the long term, the percentages will hold true and you will be up, and winning bigger pots. Sure, you will also lose bigger pots, but you are only losing your bets in these large pots, and winning multiple players bets in the pots you do win.

It's all about giving yourself pot odds if you are comfortable doing the math in O8. It is so much more scientific than hold'em and this is exactly why I prefer O8. Many people figure they have X outs, since in hold'em they would, but nobody takes into consideration the other side of the pot.

This is why you'll see people ram and jam with just nut low even heads up. Put a red flag on these guys cause they are dead money.

Sitngos I play extremely tight, like once I came 3rd out of about 54 in an MTT and I was seeing something like 12% of the flop. No joke, I think it lasted around 200 hands and I saw maybe 24 flops. Of course, bad beat on the end and I was out.

Re: Leaking finding
 

[ QUOTE ]
That means 1/4 of the time your high will take the pot alone. Also - this pot is multiway, so taking half against 3-4 players is still good.


[/ QUOTE ]
No! 1/4 of the time a high will scoop the pot. That is not necessarily or even likely to be you.

[ QUOTE ]
There are many times when 9s will be the top set. Yes, there are times it will not, but holding a T and J, means your looking only at KK, QQ, and QQ showing in order for this to happen. I'd be very leary of AAxxx boards, but a lot less leary of KKxxx and QQxxx boards.


[/ QUOTE ]
You only need for a card higher than a nine to flop for the possibilty of your set not being top set. An overcard may come and you may indeed have the best set, but you will not be in a position to take charge of the hand, due to fear of higher sets and bigger draws.

The bottom line is I think this hand is a longshot to win. I prefer to put my money into the pot when I am getting favorable odds. I don't think even 10-1 is enough in this situation. You most likely will have to play timidly, if you can continue at all after the flop. So why bother?

Re: Leaking finding
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That means 1/4 of the time your high will take the pot alone. Also - this pot is multiway, so taking half against 3-4 players is still good.


[/ QUOTE ]
No! 1/4 of the time a high will scoop the pot. That is not necessarily or even likely to be you.

[ QUOTE ]
There are many times when 9s will be the top set. Yes, there are times it will not, but holding a T and J, means your looking only at KK, QQ, and QQ showing in order for this to happen. I'd be very leary of AAxxx boards, but a lot less leary of KKxxx and QQxxx boards.


[/ QUOTE ]
You only need for a card higher than a nine to flop for the possibilty of your set not being top set. An overcard may come and you may indeed have the best set, but you will not be in a position to take charge of the hand, due to fear of higher sets and bigger draws.

The bottom line is I think this hand is a longshot to win. I prefer to put my money into the pot when I am getting favorable odds. I don't think even 10-1 is enough in this situation. You most likely will have to play timidly, if you can continue at all after the flop. So why bother?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in the camp that definitely thinks you are leaving money on the table folding this preflop. If you play well post flop you can call this profitably. This is a pretty good flop. A flop checkraise may have ended up saving the pot for the hero here.

Re: Leaking finding
 

It might be close, calling the preflop raise, if you play well after the flop. But as I said before I think there are very few good flops for JT99 ds.

I do not think betting or check raising this flop is playing well.

Disclaimer: I've never played in these very low limit online games. But I've played plenty of Omaha/8 from 3-6 up to medium stakes. Low limit games are full of fish. You do not need to be playing with a tiny edge, if any, to do very well in low limit games.

Re: Leaking finding
 

Preflop: Easy call. You are getting 11:1. This hand is weaker than average, but vs. 5 opponents it would need to be worth ~50-60% of an average hand with the odds you’re getting, and it is not close to that bad. Particularly since you have reasonable position here – even tho you are in the BB, the preflop raiser is 2 spots behind you out of 6 players, so you can check and see most of the table act before deciding.

This hand at these odds should be clearly EV+ for an experienced O8 player who plays well postflop, but the magnitude of the positive EV is relatively small. So I think folding is clearly a mistake but a small mistake.


Flop: I’d check-call usually. This flop is ok for you, but not great, and as such you want others to fold. To do that, you need to give them unfavorable odds. Unfortunately, betting out here offers them 12:1 odds, so they are close to correct to call with many weak hands. So you need to present them with calling a double bet (which still offers good odds to many hands), or better yet, wait for the turn and hope a blank hits.

Note that folding here is bad. The ideal turn/river for you is a low card on the turn that then pairs or 9’s on the river, giving you both some action on the turn and an overboat/quads on the river. That will happen ~15% of the time, and a reasonable expectation the size of the pot at showdown divided by money you must put in between now and showdown should easily offer you 7:1 here.


Turn: Betting or checking are both reasonable, and I’d pick one based on whether I thought I could get some folds, with my default being check as most opponents will have odds to call with most hands here.

Important point: Your opponent who you ridiculed for hitting his 3-outer played more correctly than you did. He had 5 outs (3 outs to non-diamond T’s, and 2 K’s) on the turn so was correct to call given the pot odds. His call on the flop was close to EV neutral given actual cards. Net, your flop bet was bad because 1) you increased the size of the pot on the flop when doing so didn’t increase your EV significantly, and 2) by increasing the pot on the flop when it didn’t help you, you gave your opponent correct odds on the turn to call.

I think this was an example of overaggressing on the flop/turn, and do NOT consider the river much of a bad beat for you since on the flop you were not a strong favorite to have the best hand at the river.

--Greg

Re: Leaking finding
 

KKQx was never a good call. Catching a K there could easily lose to a straight. Only 3 outs on turn make a straight/no flush and there is still a card to come. In essence, this moron is hoping to catch runner runner, since even an offsuit T on the river is far from a certain win.

I hate JT99, but in the BB and double-suited, it is worth seeing the flop. And, by the way, this is a very good flop for you. The danger of facing an overset is greatly reduced since you have a Jack. So, pairing the board will probably give you a scooper. Even with one less out you still still get to the end with the best hand in the neighborhood of 30% of the time. Your flush draw may not help your hand much, but it will give you some defense against the flush draws. In this particular hand, you would have won if the player with KKQ had made the correct play of folding.

This sort of play is an example of how schooling can and does take place in O-8. If you had lost to a Q-high dia fluxh, then you would have been a victim of schooling too.
On that flop the only really decent holdings are JJ, 99, KQT and the nut diamonds. Since the pot was raised, hands with a backdoor low draw (with protection) and some semblance of
a high, such as backdoor spades or a gutshot straight are marginally playable.

My personal choice with this hand would be to check raise since the pot was raised because I really want to get people out. Had the flop been unrasied, I'd just bet out and expect that the small pot size would help eliminate players.

Re: Leaking finding
 

Afer reading all the great comments, I am leaning towards the check-raise too, thanks.