*Official* Big Slick Thread
 

Okay, here's the idea. I'm a little confused on playing AK and I'm sure many others are too. So, this thread will (hopefully) consist of multiple AK hands, and comments on them.

To post a new hand, re-title your post "(Your name) #(number)". For example, my third hand posted in this thread would be "Jman28 #3". Please post some of your thoughts with the hand, and then we can all critique the hands together.

Make sure that you reply to the correct post when giving your thoughts.

This may get really confusing, or it may evolve into a discussion on AK or maybe no one will respond.

Worth a shot though, right? I'll start it off below.

Jman28 #1
 

This is a $100+9 hand. I had no reads on the villian.

I'm most concerned with my turn check. I think that my river call is almost automatic after it. I always am afraid to get involved with a big pot when a 3-flush hits.

Comments on all streets welcome.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

Hero (t1000)
MP2 (t905)
MP3 (t1210)
CO (t320)
Button (t865)
SB (t985)
BB (t985)
UTG (t1610)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1120)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t95</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls t80.

Flop: (t200) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, BB calls t150.

Turn: (t500) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t500) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333"> BB bets t270 </font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: t500

Degen # 1
 

This is how you play an Ace and a King



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

SB (t985)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t985)
UTG+2 (t1040)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t1025)
MP3 (t1000)
CO (t990)
Hero (t975)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t50</font>, SB calls t40, BB calls t35, UTG+1 calls t35.

Flop: (t200) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t80</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t935 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t845 (All-In).

Turn: (t2060) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t2060) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2060

Re: Jman28 #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm most concerned with my turn check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that's the question. I bet that turn most of the time when I don't have a flush card in my hand. I would be more likely to check if I had one. Coming from a limit background, I have a strong aversion to not betting a scare card like this.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that my river call is almost automatic after it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely. If I check that turn, I pretty much plan on calling any bet.

Re: Degen # 1
 

I know you aren't actually looking for advice here, but I would raise more preflop. Your opponents are giving up a lot by calling the larger raise, which they often will do.

Re: Degen # 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know you aren't actually looking for advice here

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe, ok ok so it has a hint of shameless bragging in it. You had impeccable timing in your post. But ya, i do want to see if this is the line most people take with AK early on. I am usually raising AKs and AKo from any position and betting any flop when HU, and it works pretty well.

Late tourney I usually call all-ins with it from most positions as people push Ax so often late.

How much would you raise this PF? Blinds are only 10/15 here...I made it over 3BB's already.



Andre

Re: Jman28 #1
 

I prefer an overbet on that flop. 375 or so. I do not want clubs in there.

Andre

Re: Degen # 1
 

I like to usually make it 70-90. When you raise to 50, too many small PPs can call you and hit their sets, which makes it tough to know when your TPTK is good.

Re: Degen # 1
 

wow...6BB's??? Are you having luck with people calling you or do you usually just take down the blinds? I'm not trying to blind steal here...

Andre

Re: Jman28 #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer an overbet on that flop. 375 or so. I do not want clubs in there.


[/ QUOTE ]

Overbet or nonoverbet, if he is going to call you chasing the flush, the villian is not getting odds either way. This way the pot is smaller if he hits his flush

Re: Degen # 1
 

I'm not trying to blind steal either.

Maybe this is a habit I should've dropped after leaving the 30+3s, but charging people as much as they will pay with inferior hands is +EV.

I find that I still get the occasional call, but maybe I need to adjust this. I'd like to hear some other thoughts.

Re: Degen # 1
 

If you raise more than that PF, what are you going to do when the flop comes KQJ and your continuation bet that you have to make is 1/3 of your stack? (I don't mind this hand as is given the large-ish PF raise, but I'd bet the turn/fold to a CR and/or check the river, since giving him a free fourth club sucks.)

My default raise at the 100's has gone back down to 60 at level 1 and to 100/125 at level 2. I like smaller pots. It also helps me with hands like these (comments on the turn?)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter

CO (t1170)
Button (t815)
Hero (t940)
BB (t1145)
UTG (t1130)
UTG+1 (t945)
UTG+2 (t830)
MP1 (t915)
MP2 (t915)
MP3 (t1195)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t125</font>, BB calls t95, UTG calls t95, CO folds, Button folds.

Flop: (t435) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks.

Turn: (t435) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t125</font>, UTG calls t125, Hero calls t125.

River: (t810) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks.

Final Pot: t810

Re: Jman28 #1
 

[ QUOTE ]

Overbet or nonoverbet, if he is going to call you chasing the flush, the villian is not getting odds either way. This way the pot is smaller if he hits his flush


[/ QUOTE ]

But it's also smaller if he misses, which will happen more often. I don't like your logic here.

Adanthar!
 

Quick! Fix your title. This might get confusing. It's not too late.

Re: Degen # 1
 

whoaaaa

i can't recall ever raising AKo out of the SB in this large a field....and i definately wouldn't be calling that turn bet...though i know andathar is a real good player...can anybody justify these two for a donkey like myself?


Andre

Re: Degen # 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to blind steal either.

Maybe this is a habit I should've dropped after leaving the 30+3s, but charging people as much as they will pay with inferior hands is +EV.

I find that I still get the occasional call, but maybe I need to adjust this. I'd like to hear some other thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I've never played above 33, I get the feeling that raising to t90 preflop on level 1 is considered a bit of an overbet at that level. The main reasons for raising to t90+ at the 11s-33s are to extract value from the maniacs who will call huge raises with garbage, and to try to keep the pot shorthanded because they will not respect a raise of less than 90. I doubt either of those factors are the case at the 109s. I haven't watched too many higher level games though, perhaps someone else with more experience can give you a better answer.

Re: Degen # 1
 

I actually think the hand is fine.

I might raise a little more hoping to get heads up or steal the chips already in the pot. His odds on the turn call are crazy good. He has 3 nut outs and 9 outs which might win him the pot. Especially since nobody is showing strength.

Re: Degen # 1
 

A twofer here:

Jman #1: I think the turn check is fine. Inducing a bet in your opponent seems like the only way you're reliably going to extract more chips when you're ahead with that board (maybe a big club calls you). I'm willing to take the chance that a club falls if he'll bet the river regardless. And yes, I think you have to call a river bet if you check the turn.

Adanthar #1 - I don't have a very good feel for this hand. I think I understand why you didn't, but I'd probably consider going ahead and making a normal continuation bet at that flop. What are people limping and calling your raise from the SB with, do you think? The hands that I think people are most likely to call with that they limped and call with are QJs, JTs, or T9s type hands, but I doubt you're seeing tons of people making that play. I'm up in the air about this.

The turn bet does look pretty weak, but I'm kind of surprised that the river got checked around following that. What was your plan if there was a river bet?

uphigh #1
 

Is this weak?

This hand has been bugging me since a couple of days. Wish I could locate the hand history. BUt this is the general picture

9 players. Level 2 (bb t30), Party 30+3

Hero is UTG+1 with 850 chips.

UTG calls
Hero (As Ks) bets t90
folds to CO who calls
SB raises to t285 (no real reads)
BB,UTG folds
Hero folds(with much pain)
CO folds.

The reason its bugging me, is that villian continued his raising spree and got busted soon after.

The reason I folded is that in the case he had AA or KK, I was pretty dead. And I did not want to reraise and be pot commited.

In case he had anything else, he would likely not pay me off if I hit(mebbe he wud in a few cases)
And if I missed, it is in most cases a fold on the flop for me.

So why should I pay even money, when most likely I can only see 3 cards where I'm just 33% to hit.

Its funny how a reraise can put you on the backfoot, even with a solid hand.

Feedback is appreciated.

Jman #2
 

I'll be honest. I don't remember this hand or what I was thinking. This is all guesswork.

I have a lot of concerns with this one. My continuation bet is a little weak. I'm not sure about the call, but he gave me such good odds.

I checked the turn because his min-raise signalled either weakness or real strength. After he checks the river, I assume he is weak, and bet small to induce a bluff, which didn't work.

Talk to me.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

SB (t1000)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1000)
Hero (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1000)
CO (t1000)
Button (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t85</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls t70.

Flop: (t180) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t80</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t160</font>, Hero calls t80.

Turn: (t500) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t500) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, BB calls t100.

Final Pot: t700

Re: Andathar #1
 

That's about what I do, depending on position 3-4 x BB raise if I'm the first raiser with AK preflop in the $33s.

Do you do anything different with say, JJ+? In the $33s facing the same opponants over and over is barely an issue, but in the $109s do you worry about people getting a read on your hand from your raise amount, especially if you are at a table with a lot of regulars?

Re: Jman #2
 

I'm not wild about this one. I agree that your continuation is a shade weak. I'm more of a 2/3 man myself though I sometimes move down to 1/2. The minraise out of my opponent worries me pretty substantially. I think if you're going to call that minraise you need to have a plan for what to do with the rest of the hand, because unless I have a read to the contrary, I'm generally reading that flop bet as an effort to string me along. I also bet something more like 200 on the river, something more conventional looking. The 100 looks too small to be a bluff to me if I'm in villain's shoes, and it also looks awfully small for a value bet.

Re: Jman #2
 

Its a fine play.

I might change it up and bet the turn to really find out if I'm real ahead or real behind.

If seemingly behind I 'may' let go, but by checking the turn, I gain little information about if I should call a big river bet.
If I seem ahead, then I can bet the turn and the river and extract more chips, than beting just one street.

In case you think that by showing weakness on the turn, a big hand(set of jacks) might come out betting soft on the river and give you a cheap showdown, its a valid thought.

But could you fold to raise on the turn. If not, then good play. If yes, then still a good play [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. Duh!

Overall it seems a pretty solid play

Phoenix # 1
 

Here's a hand that I butchered from start to finish. I submit it for destruction. My thoughts preflop: didn't want to steal the small pot, and didn't want to play a big pot out of position (didn't get my wish). Second guessing my limp now though. My thoughts on the flop: Pot sized bet, but I had a feeling it was not enough. My thoughts on the turn: why did it have to be the king of clubs? My redraw to the ace high flush and chance of filling up meant that I couldn't let it go, but I was unsure how to play it when I'm almost certainly drawing, first to act among 4 players, so I continued to butcher it.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) converter

Button (t1535)
Hero (t655)
BB (t1105)
UTG (t780)
UTG+1 (t215)
MP1 (t1205)
MP2 (t1625)
CO (t880)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t15, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t57.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t75</font>, BB calls t75, MP1 calls t75, Button calls t75.

Turn: (t357.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero bets t125, BB calls t125, MP1 calls t125, button is all-in (t1445), Hero is all-in (t440)

Re: Phoenix # 1
 

This doesn't seem terrible to me. I probably don't limp in from the SB like that PF, but I don't think I play it differently other than that. The only hands that have you drawing slim are K7 (very unlikely) and KT (somewhat unlikely). As you point out, you've still got something like 17 outs against a flush, which is button's most likely holding (maybe he's doing this with KQ as well) so you're definitely getting odds to call at that point. Since you've got a big hand now with redraws to even better hands, you can't be too upset getting your money in the middle, and it's not like pushing is going to do anything to solve your problems here.

Re: *Official* Big Slick Thread
 

I was gonna start another thread, but since this is the official Big Slick Thread...

In what situations at a full table is reraisuing with Slick a good strategy? It's a hand I will almost always raise with but hardly ever reraised with. Am I correct in this thinking?

Re: uphigh #1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this weak?

9 players. Level 2 (bb t30), Party 30+3

Hero is UTG+1 with 850 chips.

UTG calls
Hero (As Ks) bets t90
folds to CO who calls
SB raises to t285 (no real reads)
BB,UTG folds
Hero folds(with much pain)
CO folds.

The reason its bugging me, is that villian continued his raising spree and got busted soon after.

The reason I folded is that in the case he had AA or KK, I was pretty dead. And I did not want to reraise and be pot commited.

In case he had anything else, he would likely not pay me off if I hit(mebbe he wud in a few cases)
And if I missed, it is in most cases a fold on the flop for me.

So why should I pay even money, when most likely I can only see 3 cards where I'm just 33% to hit.

Its funny how a reraise can put you on the backfoot, even with a solid hand.

Feedback is appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the absence of a read, this is the correct line with AK. You raise with it, and if a rational player comes back over the top of you, they are going to have AK or a pair virtually all the time. They probably don't have AA or KK, of course, since you hold an A and a K. If they haven't raised enough, you might be able to call and try to hit, but you should virtually never reraise unless you're prepared to race, because you've usually got the bad end of a coinflip.

In your hand, I suggest raising to $125 or $150 since you have a limper (a pot sized bet would be $135). This makes it even easier to get away from the hand when you get reraised significantly.

[ QUOTE ]
so why should I pay even money, when most likely I can only see 3 cards where I'm just 33% to hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to this question, by the way, is implied odds. Most bad players hate to give up on big holdings and can be tricked easily, so you can make a slightly bad call because you feel confident you''l take his stack or double-up if you catch. For example, say he has QQ and he raised to $285 after you raised to $135. You call and the flop comes K-x-x. If he bets out, you can just call and feign weakness. If he checks, you can check behind and convince him you didn't make a pair of Kings. For a lot of bad players, esp. at lower levels, once they think they're reading you for being weak, AND then they look at their o-so-pretty JJ or QQ, they get very itchy trigger fingers and their chips magically get to the middle.

--Zen

Re: uphigh #1
 

The reason I make a smallish raie, is I want to control the pot-size so early in the tournament.
A bigger raise makes a continuation bet harder to make, and also involvs me more deeply into the pot.
Smallish raise is easier to give up on the flop.
(Now maybe this thinking is weak)

And yes I do know the itchy finger syndrome. I ued to have it [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: *Official* Big Slick Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]

In what situations at a full table is reraisuing with Slick a good strategy? It's a hand I will almost always raise with but hardly ever reraised with. Am I correct in this thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, kinda. I used to reraise too much with AK. A lot of it comes down to where you are gonna be post flop.

You don't wanna end up with 1/4-1/3 of your stack in the pot and then have to decide whether or not to take a shot at the pot when you whiff on the flop.

Keep that in mind when deciding to reraise or not, or deciding on how much to raise.

Re: Degen # 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know you aren't actually looking for advice here, but I would raise more preflop. Your opponents are giving up a lot by calling the larger raise, which they often will do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually not a fan of this large raise. I really don't like open raising to 95 on 10-15 blinds.

Re: Degen # 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know you aren't actually looking for advice here, but I would raise more preflop. Your opponents are giving up a lot by calling the larger raise, which they often will do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually not a fan of this large raise. I really don't like open raising to 95 on 10-15 blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting to think that this is a leak of mine. Could you (or anyone) expand on your reasoning for this and discuss your standard raise?

Re: Degen # 1
 

well i open raise as huge as possible with AA and KK...95 if i think they'll call, sometimes as much as 150 if i think they'll call it. but AK is just not as strong of a hand, it is most likely the best hand going into the flop, but its going to get beat on that flop a heckuva lot more than AA or KK will.

my main purpose for raising pre is to thin the field and try to get HU and take the pot down on the flop. theoretically i might as well do this with 73o, but the AK has some value as well.


Andre

Re: Degen # 1
 

See, but I think it's somewhat important to be raising about the same amount with AA, KK, AK, QQ, JJ and almost any hand you raise with. This is why I raise so much with AK, because I do it with KK also.

Re: Degen # 1
 

I dunno, I just don't feel comfortable making such huge raises preflop with AK. I make it like 45-60 depending on my mood, and usually 80-100 in round 2 depdending how I feel. I have trouble explaining, it just makes me feel more comfortable playing postflop.

Re: Degen # 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, I just don't feel comfortable making such huge raises preflop with AK. I make it like 45-60 depending on my mood, and usually 80-100 in round 2 depdending how I feel. I have trouble explaining, it just makes me feel more comfortable playing postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

what curtains is trying to say, is that he is scared. scared of playing a flop for a significant portion of his chips. scared to get it in there a little bit. scared to LOSE a few meaningless chips. simply scared.

ok, i for some reason have started doing those sarcastic fragments at the start of some of my posts, mainly because im bored. whatever.

anyways, i hear what curtains is saying about not raising a whole lot on level 1 or 2 with AK. its just too easy to bleed chips with it. there are of older posts where i advocated actually LIMPING with AK preflop in levels 1 and 2. though im not a huge fan of this any more, im even LESS a fan of making a huge raise. holla

Re: Degen # 1
 

I don't raise a lot with any hands. I basically raise about the same amount with all hands I'm open raising with in rounds 1+2.

Re: Andathar #1
 

Bah, that's what I get for not looking at titles [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Adanthar #1 - I don't have a very good feel for this hand. I think I understand why you didn't, but I'd probably consider going ahead and making a normal continuation bet at that flop. What are people limping and calling your raise from the SB with, do you think? The hands that I think people are most likely to call with that they limped and call with are QJs, JTs, or T9s type hands, but I doubt you're seeing tons of people making that play. I'm up in the air about this.

The turn bet does look pretty weak, but I'm kind of surprised that the river got checked around following that. What was your plan if there was a river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry about people not sucking at the 109's; UTG took down that pot with Q9o. They suck just as much as the people at the 11's, just in slightly different ways. For example, I think I was getting called or raised there pretty much every time - that board just blows far too much for AK or most other hands I could be holding. The SB raise narrows down my hand too much, which is why I can't fire at a 2 Broadway flop without *something*. (So yeah, I was check/folding the river and only called the turn because I thought almost all my outs were good. I kinda wanted to know if people thought I should've folded the turn anyway.)

I would do exactly the same with JJ (maybe really pwn the limpers and raise to 200 or something) but I do make a continuation bet into this board, where I possibly wouldn't do it with an A showing. I check a lot of big underpairs HU and 3 way, which doesn't mean I won't call with them. It depends.

Re: Jman28 #1
 

I think T95 is too big a raise with no limpers at Level 1. You are setting yourself up for difficulties later in the hand.

EDIT: Oops, wrong place this topic is already discussed in detail below.

Re: *Official* Big Slick Thread
 

I'm interested in how most people play AK when they have about 8-10 BB and it's folded to them (a quite common situation on the 50-100 blind level for example).

Make a standard raise of say 3 BB or just push allin (or vary it)? Do you take your position into consideration when choosing the amount to raise?

Re: *Official* Big Slick Thread
 

I posted this bubble hand yesterday:

UTG has been the table LAG but not a maniac. His stack size has gone up and down in 1000 chip movements. I have been playing TAG but getting very good cards so playing in more hands than I normally will play in the early levels. I've been HU with UTG once on level 4 (60/30) where he slow played a flopped set to my TPTK. I have had to try to recreate the hand - didn't save the HH at the time so no converter, sorry if it is a mess.

Blinds: 200/100

SB (t2400)
BB (t4150)
UTG (t4200)
Hero (t4250)

Preflop: Hero is on the Button with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises 700, 2 folds, UTG raises all-in.
Hero?