30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

Here is an interesting hand I played against 2 good players where I thought I'd make more money by keeping in the 3rd player (felt like I was playing hi/low with this play). Maybe I should have raised somewhere along the line to protect against getting drawn out by a full house or maybe the guy with the open Js would have called a double raise on either 5th or 6th and I cost myself $120 by not raising?

7 Card Stud High ($30/$60), Ante $5, Bring-In $10 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (3.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (9.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (12.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks___folds

Total pot: (14.25 BB)

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

I think I would reraise sixth, if they both have trips or two pair, I'd imagine your equity goes up quite a bit by getting one to fold. If he calls anyway, thats good as well.

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would reraise sixth, if they both have trips or two pair, I'd imagine your equity goes up quite a bit by getting one to fold. If he calls anyway, thats good as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. I like your range of starting hands. I wish I was good enough on later streets to make these playable!

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

I definitely reraise 5th. Punish two pair and trips and make them pay dearly to draw out. Game Friday?

Jeff

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

I can see the call on 5th

Once you hit the 3rd heart on 6th I think you should raise.

-You'll come off like you are trying to raise on a 4 flush
-By then the pot is big enough that if you don't mind not letting a 2 - pair draw

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

id raise 6th, keep em both calling on 5th, and when seat 1 bets again on 6th raise there ... you have 2 of his 4 (possibly 6) outs to a full house here, and seat 8 is looking to see a cheap 7th to fill up, and definetly isn't calling 7th with his weaker two pair

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

[ QUOTE ]
Game Friday?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes please

Mike? you in?

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

Fold 3rd.

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would reraise sixth, if they both have trips or two pair, I'd imagine your equity goes up quite a bit by getting one to fold. If he calls anyway, thats good as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean reraise 5th or raise 6th? I think that my equity might actually go down if they both have 2 pair and my raise gets one of them to fold, especially given that their pair cards are dead...I'll check it out on twodimes.net to see.

Reads and some thought questions...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely reraise 5th. Punish two pair and trips and make them pay dearly to draw out. Game Friday?

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

What are the range of hands, and how likely they are, you (or anyone) put the two opponents on on 5th and 6th? Why? What does it look like I have to my opponents? Why? What if the open Js just has a busted 3 flush with the Js, I want him in, right?

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I would reraise sixth, if they both have trips or two pair, I'd imagine your equity goes up quite a bit by getting one to fold. If he calls anyway, thats good as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you mean reraise 5th or raise 6th? I think that my equity might actually go down if they both have 2 pair and my raise gets one of them to fold, especially given that their pair cards are dead...I'll check it out on twodimes.net to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I like the call on fifth, but there could definitely be a case made for raising. I like a raise on sixth for my stated reasons. I'm interested in the sims if you think your equity would go down by knocking out someone on sixth.

Mike

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Game Friday?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes please

Mike? you in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike is in Florida and said he'll let me know midweek if he can play. Looks like there is a ton of interest for a game this Friday, so there will be one...people that give me good feedback in this thread get first dibs at a seat;-)

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once you hit the 3rd heart on 6th I think you should raise.

-You'll come off like you are trying to raise on a 4 flush
-By then the pot is big enough that if you don't mind not letting a 2 - pair draw

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't it look like I am raising on a made flush as opposed to a 4 flush?

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Game Friday?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes please

Mike? you in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike is in Florida and said he'll let me know midweek if he can play. Looks like there is a ton of interest for a game this Friday, so there will be one...people that give me good feedback in this thread get first dibs at a seat;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn all of you DC people and your home games [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you hit the 3rd heart on 6th I think you should raise.

-You'll come off like you are trying to raise on a 4 flush
-By then the pot is big enough that if you don't mind not letting a 2 - pair draw

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't it look like I am raising on a made flush as opposed to a 4 flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

It might, but you didnt raise on 4th....so your opponents might not put you on that hand precisely. It will be in your range...but it won't be the only thing in the range.

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

I don't play a lot of three-handed $30/60, but I think third street is a fold. Since you decided to play, I would absolutely raise fifth. You'd raise with a variety of hands, right? Why not raise when you actually have the goods. The raise isn't going anywhere, and the bettor probably isn't either. Go ahead and build yourself a pot. I'd raise sixth as well.

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I would reraise sixth, if they both have trips or two pair, I'd imagine your equity goes up quite a bit by getting one to fold. If he calls anyway, thats good as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean reraise 5th or raise 6th? I think that my equity might actually go down if they both have 2 pair and my raise gets one of them to fold, especially given that their pair cards are dead...I'll check it out on twodimes.net to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your equity in the pot will go up because there will be fewer opponents (hense you'll win more). But your EV might go down a bit if the gain you get from increased equity doesn't make up the lose of a BB (or 2).

Overall it will probably be a wash or close to it. I say you risk losing .1 BB in EV (at most) to decrease your varience.

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you hit the 3rd heart on 6th I think you should raise.

-You'll come off like you are trying to raise on a 4 flush
-By then the pot is big enough that if you don't mind not letting a 2 - pair draw

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't it look like I am raising on a made flush as opposed to a 4 flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

It might, but you didnt raise on 4th....so your opponents might not put you on that hand precisely. It will be in your range...but it won't be the only thing in the range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, but the standard play with a 4 flush in 2nd position in a 3 way pot on 4th is to call and let the 3rd man in because your chance of winning doesn't go down much in a multiway pot with a 4 flush. If I was in 3rd position on 4th, the raise would be standard.

Twodimes Sims and my solution
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I would reraise sixth, if they both have trips or two pair, I'd imagine your equity goes up quite a bit by getting one to fold. If he calls anyway, thats good as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean reraise 5th or raise 6th? I think that my equity might actually go down if they both have 2 pair and my raise gets one of them to fold, especially given that their pair cards are dead...I'll check it out on twodimes.net to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your equity in the pot will go up because there will be fewer opponents (hense you'll win more). But your EV might go down a bit if the gain you get from increased equity doesn't make up the lose of a BB (or 2).

Overall it will probably be a wash or close to it. I say you risk losing .1 BB in EV (at most) to decrease your varience.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a bunch of twodimes sims, and as usually they were VERY enlightening; I suggest that everyone spend less time playing and more time on twodimes (especially in multiway pots). I am now pretty sure of what the optimal line is (in white for those who actually want to do the sims themselves first): <font color="white"> Call 5th, raise 6th &amp; fold to a 3 bet, bet 7th if checked to or crying call a single bet (or check raise) but fold to a double bet cold. </font>. The 5th and 6th st. plays are dependant on assigning high probabilities to specific hands for each opponent, but I think this is fairly easy to do with this hand. I'm going to bed now, but I'll explain what my reads and reasoning for this line of play after I hear some what some of your reads are.

Calling on 3rd st.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play a lot of three-handed $30/60, but I think third street is a fold. Since you decided to play, I would absolutely raise fifth. You'd raise with a variety of hands, right? Why not raise when you actually have the goods. The raise isn't going anywhere, and the bettor probably isn't either. Go ahead and build yourself a pot. I'd raise sixth as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the 3rd st. call is not obvious, or even +EV in and of itself (mostly of the dead 4 &amp; 5) but playing wheel draws (with a hidden A) is actually a very strong play (as I have recently discovered in the last few months) short handed. It does wonders for your image, making it look like you are willing to draw to gut shots or just an A in the hole, as well as makes you harder to read. A gutshot and an overcard, or a small pair with an overcard can be a strong hand on 4th shorthanded and it is very well concealed. For those reasons, even without the 2 flush this is not a super hard call given the great pot and implied odds I'm getting. I would recommend folding 3rd as a way to stay out of trouble for those that aren't confindent of their play on later sts., as the this kind of marginal hand can get you into trouble when you have just one or 2 small pair later in the hand.

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

Interesting. First I thought “hell, raise 5th” but after thinking about seat 8’s range…

The only hand he should be calling with on 3rd is a 3-flush with no over card worth mentioning. So he’s drawing very, very slim on 5th (unless he opted not to raise with a jack-high 3-flush, but I think he should, right?). Also, there’s no way he can call two cold with just jacks, but he’ll probably call one bet hoping to suck out on AA or KK.

On 6th you have a clear raise, however (and a fold if seat 1 3-bets; yeah, I did read the white writing, couldn’t resist [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). Seat 8 has to call with his flush draw, so make him pay.

And I guess you should raise if seat 8 rags off, too. He can’t very well call with just jacks once seat 1 makes the open pair.

Re: 30/60 High, calling with str8 to get overcalls
 

I really like seeing these short-handed stud posts, even if I don't play high-only. Keep 'em coming.

My reasoning
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting. First I thought “hell, raise 5th” but after thinking about seat 8’s range…

The only hand he should be calling with on 3rd is a 3-flush with no over card worth mentioning. So he’s drawing very, very slim on 5th (unless he opted not to raise with a jack-high 3-flush, but I think he should, right?). Also, there’s no way he can call two cold with just jacks, but he’ll probably call one bet hoping to suck out on AA or KK.

On 6th you have a clear raise, however (and a fold if seat 1 3-bets; yeah, I did read the white writing, couldn’t resist [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). Seat 8 has to call with his flush draw, so make him pay.

And I guess you should raise if seat 8 rags off, too. He can’t very well call with just jacks once seat 1 makes the open pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you pretty much hit it on the head...I think the yeah here is realizing that it is highly unlikely that the 8 seat has more than a bust draw and open Js on 5th. With any pair (except for maybe 2s, 3s, or less likely As or Ks) he most likely would have raised 3rd or 4th when playing 3 handed. Thus it is incorrect for him to even call one bet on 5th, whereas if I raise he will make a correct laydown.

On 6th I definitely should have raised, because now it looks like the 8 seat has hit a flush draw, so I need to charge him the max to draw out (he would be correct to fold to my raise with worse than a Q high flush draw because it looks like I might have hit a flush). The only danger with raising 6th is that I could be shoting myself in the foot if the open 5s has filled up. Luckily, that is unlikely because I have many of his pair cards, but in order to make this raise I need to have the strength to fold to a 3 bet since only a maniac would 3 bet what looks like a made flush (by someone who cold called 2 bets on 5th) with out a boat.

You are right about raising 6th even if the 8 seat rags off, because the 8 seat can't call the open pair. But what if the 8 the 3rd guy didn't get open 5s and the 8 seat rags off...should I raise?

Re: My reasoning
 

[ QUOTE ]
But what if the 8 the 3rd guy didn't get open 5s and the 8 seat rags off...should I raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should just call 6th and bet/raise the river. The 8 seat is drawing dead the majority of the time (unless his 6th street card made him a second pair), so keeping him in is unproblematic.

If you raise 6th, the 8 seat is forced to fold and the most you’ll get is 3 BB (6th &amp; river).
If you call you get 2 BB on 6th just the same, but you have the chance to make more than 1BB on the river. For instance, maybe the 8 seat bets out with jacks up (don‘t know if he would) or trip jacks, the 1 seat calls and you raise. Or the 1 seat bets again and you raise.
Worst case they both check, but even then the 1 seat is calling so you get the same amount (1 BB) you would have gotten if you had raised 6th.

Re: My reasoning
 

good analysis roland