Re: Using ALL CAPS doesn\'t strengthen your position
 

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I appreciate your input, Myrtle, but I just don't see it in as "politically correct" a sense as you seem to.

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I really don't think anyone here, particularly Myrtle, is advocating 'political correctness'.

If anyone is taking the 'politically correct' path, it's 2+2.

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DV...

As I read M's repsonse to my last post, those were my exact thoughts.

FWIW, I abhorr political correctness and see it as a pox upon the land.

I believe we are seeing it in practice in this string, under the guise of civility.......

Re: Using ALL CAPS doesn\'t strengthen your position
 

Myrtle,

I associate political correctness with an overconcern for how things may appear. That is sort of what I was trying to get at by putting the term in quotes since I couldn't find the right words at that moment.

Re: MMMMMM Advocates Violence Against Americans
 

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That doesn't mean I will stop posting my views when discussing politics, though;-)

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But all your political posts will be toothless centrist posts? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: MMMMMM Advocates Violence Against Americans
 

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I, for one, am not here to put MMMMMM on trial; I've stated numerous times I think he's quite civil, articulate, and (except in the case of joker) has been more than fair - I just dislike the standards he (and I suppose 2+2, if 2+2 supports such standards) has created.

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Thank you DVaut1.

One standard which I did not create refers to not posting things defamatory about other users. This is clearly spelled out in the Terms and Conditions. Jokerswild did that very thing when he falsely claimed I advocated violence against Americans and coupled it with a reference to me as a "Tim McVeigh racist". As you can see, that is a very strong and pretty defamatory statement. He is likening me to Tim McVeigh and saying I advocated violence similarly. That is simply defamatory (also, he did it right after a warning but that's beside your point).

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The problem with the standards is that, if an ordinary debate among candidates was conducted on this board, the candidates would wind up banned.

Re: MMMMMM Advocates Violence Against Americans
 

I would just like to say that I think MMMMMM is the f***ing man. Even though he is a whacked out libertarian who thinks that government should be the size of a pea I still think that he has been more fair than any other moderator I've ever met and I am glad that he is in charge.

MMMMMM, you can send the 50 bucks to my Stars account as promised. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Scoot

Re: Using ALL CAPS doesn\'t strengthen your position
 

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I believe that the operant principal behind the act of recusement is to prevent ANY hint of impropriety whatseover.

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My take is that being concerned about *any hint* of impropriety is too high a bar in this instance. I don't think anyone's trying to get elected or approved for a judgeship or anything like that; and moderators are given considerable latitude to exercise their best judgment. I don't think recusement is fully appropriate or necessary here. I'm sorry but we'll just have to disagree on this point. .

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I see it as reasonably simple.....You may not be up for appointment to a judgeship, but where is it written that you shouldn’t strive to have to same high ideals? I believe that you are equivocating......essentially saying (without speaking the words).......This isn’t as important, so I don’t have to live up to the highest standards.

I must tell you, in all candor, I find that attitude unacceptable. Perhaps if more of us were willing to make the extra effort, we, as a group would not find ourselves in the homogenized, lowest-common-denominator, 2nd rate society that we are rapidly becoming.

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I feel that your ‘pretty much know what is going on comment’ is dangerous and smacks of double-speak and double-think.

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No double-speak intended: all I mean is that the Other Topics (now Politics) posters who have been here for many years are very familiar with jokerswild's insults, name-calling, twisting of words, defamatory accusations, and so forth. By saying "they know what's going on" I mean this is old hat to them. Par for the course. Perfectly in character for jokerswild. It's happened more times than one could count. Ask any of the veteran posters whom I named about jokerswild (or about lol!, or about Ray Springfield (if they go back that far)) and see what they say about those usernames, if you care to.

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FWIW, I’ve been here almost since the inception of the site, and I don’t think it has anything to do with what we’re discussing. I’ve seen the incidents you’re speaking about. You’re barking up the wrong tree here if you’re looking to validate your point of view in this manner.

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I offered jokerswild a chance at a fresh slate along with a warning and an assurance. He promptly violated both and the T of C *and* the warning as well, and in very unmistakable fashion. As far as I'm concerned this shows he didn't want another chance; and now he's gone.

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Please explain to me how you justify your action of ‘offering jw a fresh slate’? There is an insinuation and implication in that statement that could lead many reasonable people to believe that your point of view is more narrow than it should be. By offering him a ‘fresh slate’, are you forgiving him for his supposed indiscretions of the past? I don’t believe you have the moral authority to do that. He should stand or fall on what he has said, or how he has acted. The idea that you have the power of absolution because of your position as moderator is wrong-headed, IMO.

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Also as I've stated before, if some posters think I am being too harsh in this, well, so be it. I'm not running for public office here. I'm doing the best and fairest job I can of trying to get the forum into some semblance of civility and that includes issuing a few warnings and one banning (jokerswild, who, by the way, I am nearly certain has been PERMA-BANNED before as username "lol!"--but who I believe managed to sneak in under a new user name).

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I believe that you are doing the best and fairest job that you can. Civility is an admirable goal, but by no means way up there in the total scheme of things that we are discussing. Had the founding fathers deferred to civility, we would still all be British citizens.........

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In short I acted objectively on this and I'm not overly concerned that a few posters may think I didn't. I explained my reasoning and believe it's solid. Jokerswild posted false and defamatory statements aboout a user which is clearly forbidden in the T of C. Moreover he combined it with bad name-calling and worst of all he did this right after a very specific warning.

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I believe that you believe that you acted objectively, i.e., your intentions were good. I do not, however, think that your reasoning is as solid as you think it is. I think that you SHOULD be concerned with what a few posters may think, if what they’re saying has logic and merit to it.

We are talking about a very fine line here. I am saying that because jw’s attack was directed torwards you, that you MUST recuse yourself, as you hold the sword, and once you use it, you can rationalize your actions until the cows come home, but, in the end, you’ve created a bigger problem than you may have resolved.

You may not like the idea that I’m drawing parallels to ‘bigger’ issues, but you must realize that it is right here, in these kinds of small, personal debates that the seeds of our character either grow or wilt.

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i'm sorry to say it but sensitivity to perceptions of impropriety goes only so far in my book. If that were all we ever cared about we'd never get anywhere in life or in discussion or in debate. At some point a line has to be drawn regardless of the opinions of some. And I think an objective examination will clearly show that jokerswild crossed that line (as he has innumerable times in the past).

I appreciate your input, Myrtle, but I just don't see it in as "politically correct" a sense as you seem to. Sometimes you just have to say screw perception and do what's right. That's my view and I think most who actually analyze the situation will concur that jokerswild eminently deserved banning. As for those that don't, well, you can't please all of the people all of the time. Sorry about that.

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Agreed that sensitivity to impropriety goes only so far. In this case, I disagree with your assessment of how far it goes. I believe you have cut it short of what I consider prudent and due process.

As stated by another poster, I also believe that your standing and postings in this matter are more in line with todays’ ‘political correctness’ guidelines than mine are.

The essence of the disagreement between us is somewhat similar to the ongoing ‘separation of church and state’ debate.

This onion has lots of layers. How many have you peeled off? Are you sure that you are at the core?

Closing your post with ‘Sorry about that’ doesn’t lead me to believe that you are, but rather that you are falling back upon you position of power as moderator to dismiss any points of view that disagree with yours.

Re: MMMMMM Advocates Violence Against Americans
 

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The problem with the standards is that, if an ordinary debate among candidates was conducted on this board, the candidates would wind up banned.

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Well then maybe there is something wrong with those candidates, or with the way they debate. Just because they might do what you suggest they might do, does not make it OK.

Re: MMMMMM Advocates Violence Against Americans
 

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The problem with the standards is that, if an ordinary debate among candidates was conducted on this board, the candidates would wind up banned.

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Well then maybe there is something wrong with those candidates, or with the way they debate. Just because they might do what you suggest they might do, does not make it OK.

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Please MMMMMM, spare me. This isn't 3rd grade. We're adults. Except for Fishhooks.

Re: MMMMMM Advocates Violence Against Americans
 

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I may be missing something, but if the issue is that M abused his power by banning Joker, I'm totally Ok with that decision. When I look at his posts, he seems like an ordinary troll. If there's more to this, I did indeed miss something.

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It is difficult to believe that more people don't feel the same way. That idiot's schtick got old a long time ago, and it sucks to think that the reason some people are coming to his defense is the direction from which he trolled.

Re: MMMMMM Advocates Violence Against Americans
 

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I respect him as poster, but personally feel that he has been a tad biased and just want him to pay attention to this, since if he becomes more biased, in the end all the lefties will go elsewhere and this forum will be practically dead.

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Love it or Leave it.