Re: Muslim Groups Cheer Aquittal of Cheerleader of Islamic Terrorism
 

I see you have no desire to actually debate the topic, so I will stop attempting to do so.

Re: Muslim Groups Cheer Aquittal of Cheerleader of Islamic Terrorism
 

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I see by this nonsensical response that you're just pumping your post count so that when you spam posters with RB offers, people think that you're a poster with some history.

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Now that puts an interesting spin on the lady's posts.

Re: Muslim Groups Cheer Aquittal of Cheerleader of Islamic Terrorism
 

DVaut1, you first "jumped into" this thread in your prior post at 12:08 PM, *with no apparent purpose other than to lash out at me, and contributed therein nothing of substance to the discussion in progress*. Granted, you're welcome to "jump into" any thread you see fit, but when you do you should usually start by addressing the specific issue under discussion. Instead, you launched into a lengthy and sarcastic assault, while contributing nothing to the discussion of the issues under contention.

Moreover, you STILL haven't addressed the central point in this sub-thread, which I first made in this in response to ACPlayer, that Mohammed's life example (and his words in the hadiths) could help shed some light on which interpretations of the Koran are most likely to be correct. After all, if the very FOUNDER of a religion views the sacred texts in a certain manner, and follows through in his own real life example, that really ought to carry some serious weight, oughtn't it?

Finally, you seem to have a strange and recurring obsession with attacking me as a matter of general course. Well, you are now IGNORED.

Re: Muslim Groups Cheer Aquittal of Cheerleader of Islamic Terrorism
 

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I like how you spliced that allegedly and the admitted together to make like he admitted to something that he didn't. That's a nice little piece of work right there.

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Um, no, the "allegedly" refers to his having tried to send it--not to his having written it, nor its content. As you can see, he admitted to having written it.

"Al-Arian also admitted that he wrote a letter—which he allegedly attempted to send, but could not do so successfully—to a Kuwaiti legislator urging him to support the families of suicide bombers in order to provide “support of the jihad effort in Palestine so that [suicide] operations such as these can continue.” He wrote the letter just weeks after President Clinton had signed an executive order banning financial and material support of PIJ. Again, this is only known because the government introduced it as evidence during trial."

Also:

"At the 1990 ICP conference, Al-Arian addressed the crowd of 200 people in St. Louis called for “true armed jihad against the enemy in Israel.”"

Re: Muslim Groups Cheer Aquittal of Cheerleader of Islamic Terrorism
 

The following points you make are correct:

1. In the last 25 years many of the terrorist incidents have muslim perps.
2. There is widespread tacit support of terrorists in parts of the middle east
3. There is at least some anti-american sentiment in the middle east, including dancing on the streets.

However, to conclude that this means that Islam is to blame is fallacious. I offer the following observations:

1. When, historically, certain groups have used Christianity to justify their activities does not indict Christianity. On offer is the Spanish Queen's expelling of non-chritians -- see history of sephardim; the anti-semitism of many european countries; the activities of Hindu extremists in India etc.
2. The majority of the incidents you cited are from groups in the middle east. You ignore the millions of Muslims living elsewhere in the world. Perhaps the reason has to do with middle east socio-political dynamics and not Islam. At a minimum that is very fertile line to explore for the real reasons.

I suggest that the real reasons for terrorist activities lie in the economic-political environment of the middle east and in Islam. Their support for the terrorist is similar to the support we gave our government in its internment of the Japanese in WW2 and the support we gave as a knee jerk reaction to the misadventures in Iraq (both supported position have not stood the test of time -- or logic).

Lastly, Islam has been around since about 700 AD. The terrorist activities have been around for 25 years (at least the ones attributed to Islam). The same people have been praying, avoiding Pork and following the words of the Koran for all this time -- and now are terrorists because of the Koran. What happened to the believers for the earlier centuries?

Re: Muslim Groups Cheer Aquittal of Cheerleader of Islamic Terrorism
 

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1. In the last 25 years many of the terrorist incidents have muslim perps.
2. There is widespread tacit support of terrorists in parts of the middle east
3. There is at least some anti-american sentiment in the middle east, including dancing on the streets.

However, to conclude that this means that Islam is to blame is fallacious.

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Fallacious it would be to conclude it is 100% to blame, yes. I have never claimed that, and I don't think the poster is claiming that now. Also, note too that it would be fallacious to conclude that Islam must therefore be *not* even partially to blame.

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Lastly, Islam has been around since about 700 AD. The terrorist activities have been around for 25 years (at least the ones attributed to Islam). The same people have been praying, avoiding Pork and following the words of the Koran for all this time -- and now are terrorists because of the Koran. What happened to the believers for the earlier centuries?

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You almost make it sound as if Islam always lived in peace with all its neighbors, until the last few decades (well, the suicide bombers pretty much are new, but Islamic violent conquest and oppression of non-believers has a long history). Why don't you try Googling: History of Jihad?

Here is one of the first articles that came up:

(excerpt)"The Koran invites Muslims to give their lives in exchange for assurances of paradise.

The Hadith (accounts of Muhammad’s actions and personal statements) elaborate on the Koran, providing specific injunctions about treaties, pay, booty, prisoners, tactics, and much else. Muslim jurisprudents then wove these precepts into a body of law.

Muhammad’s conquests: During his years in power, the prophet engaged in an average of nine military campaigns a year, or one every 5-6 weeks; thus did jihad help define Islam from its very dawn. Conquering and humiliating non-Muslims was a main feature of the prophet’s jihad."(end excerpt)

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=18231

Re: Muslim Groups Cheer Aquittal of Cheerleader of Islamic Terrorism
 

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nicky, the point was already made to you by both MMMMMM and myself in that other thread, that it is not important how you wish to interpret the Quran in the most favorable light to avoid the plain meaning of its words, but how Moslems interpret and act on it. You seem to intentionally be refusing to make this distinction.

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How is it that all of you apologizers for Islam don't get the point above that I posted earlier? How ironic it is that liberal westerners feel such a politically correct need to put a positive light on Moslem motivations and actions regarding terrorism, when Moslems themselves do not. My OP in this thread and the excerpt giving those reactions of American Moslem groups shows that clearly.

Re: Muslim Groups Cheer Aquittal of Cheerleader of Islamic Terrorism
 

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I see you have no desire to actually debate the topic, so I will stop attempting to do so.

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Nonsense. Look at the extensive response I wrote prior to your posting of this statement. Your failure to respond to anything I've said says something about YOUR desire to debate this topic. I've answered each of your questions. Your lack of returning the courtesy is telling.

Re: Muslim Groups Cheer Aquittal of Cheerleader of Islamic Terrorism
 

Well, sure you can partially blame Islam. Just as you can partially blame those who wear little checkered towels on their head. Just because there is a correlation does not mean there is blame. If there is cause it is in the socio-political dynamic in this region.

I do not make it sound like Islam has lived in peace with its neighbours. That may be a conclusion you draw. We are specifically discussing terrorism and not peaceful coexistence. Islamic countries in the middle east were in the past 500 years just as likely to fight with each other as with outsiders. That has nothing to do with Islam, but has to do with the ability of these tribes to eke out an existence in that area -- again it is economic, not religious.

To take one example from the glorious days of Islamic domination. In India until Aurangzeb (who was a despot and is considered anti-Islamic by many) the muslim rulers ruled in a relatively benign manner -- even letting the Hindus (who are not of the book and do not believe in one god) practice their religion. When the economic conditions of the rulers declined their despotism increased.

Historically, Islam is no more or less violent than other societies. We can look into our own backyard (the subjugation of the American Indians) for a violent conflict fostered by economic conditions with a veneer of religious connotations.

Further, I suggest reading history, rather than propoganda.

Re: Muslim Groups Cheer Aquittal of Cheerleader of Islamic Terrorism
 

Altogether, not a bad post, ACPlayer.

One point however should be noted: there is no correlation worldwide between economic conditions and terrorism, and many very poor countries or societies do not turn to terrorism.

I will grant that in the case of the Middle-East there is also a whole stew of problems and troubled traditions, so I'm not saying that Islam is the only cause of terrorism or other problems. However, some years ago, I posted a study done which found no worldwide correlation between economic conditions and terrorism--and this study was done by a rather neutral group, though I forget whether it was Human Rights Watch, or a Doctors' group, or perhaps even the U.N. At any rate, that part of the equation can be thrown out--many of the very poorest regions in the world do not turn to terrorism. Just some food for thought.