Re: Party High Stakes Winners and Losers (datamined)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Over past 2 months about I've been datamining the party 50/100 and 100/200 games as much as possible and I've accumulated 288k hands so far at these limits. I plan to continue datamineing these games and will report back now and then with the latest results. This database is not for sale fyi.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's amazing that Party allows this datamining stuff to continue. And even more amazing that the high stakes players here don't seem to object it. Don't you think that the dataminers have an “unfair advantage” when they can collect thousands of hands without:

- allowing the other players see how the miners play
- having to pay any rake
- risking any money in possible losses

I noticed in earlier thread comments about Derb being a bot. True or not, isn't datamining a great tool for the developement of bots? I assume that for example Poker Academy's Vexbot would be very efficient in exploiting the weaknesses of the worst players in the above list, when given their betting patterns in thousand headsup situations.

Is this possibility for datamining good in the long run for the skillful “human” online players?

Mason Malmuth has written about poker's integrity in his essays. It would nice be know his and David Sklansky's opinion on this new favorite “hobby” of the 2+2 posters.

[/ QUOTE ]


i dont see how its unfair being that everyone can get pokertracker and pokerace for a combined $80

[/ QUOTE ]

Josh,

We've discussed this a number of times, it's not an issue of "fairness", it is whats right. DERB didn't play any hands with you, you didn't pay the 5 dollar rake. You didn't make that crying call to pay them off. It's also not fair to the existing players, you spend some time scouting out 10k hands of my play before I get a chance to play you? That's not fair. It's friggin immoral.

I don't blame you guys at all, I blame party. Its irresponsible for them to allow the collection of data from non participating players. Since it's out there, I don't begrudge you guys at all. Hell, who would help me with all my tech problems then?! Just not my thang.

Re: Party High Stakes Winners and Losers (datamined)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing that Party allows this datamining stuff to continue. And even more amazing that the high stakes players here don't seem to object it. Don't you think that the dataminers have an “unfair advantage” when they can collect thousands of hands without:

- allowing the other players see how the miners play
- having to pay any rake
- risking any money in possible losses


[/ QUOTE ]

i dont see how its unfair being that everyone can get pokertracker and pokerace for a combined $80

[/ QUOTE ]

I datamine, but I wish that party would not allow it and remove the ability to get observed hand histories. An important poker concept is you have to pay for information: no reward comes without risk. By removing that concept we change the game. I don't think of it as a matter of "fairness," but as a way the game can be improved.

I also wish that they did not show mucked uncalled hands in the hand history. I have less of a problem with this because online collusion is such a danger.

Re: Party High Stakes Winners and Losers (datamined)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't blame you guys at all, I blame party. Its irresponsible for them to allow the collection of data from non participating players. Since it's out there, I don't begrudge you guys at all. Hell, who would help me with all my tech problems then?! Just not my thang.

[/ QUOTE ]
“We have also noted your suggestion of giving players access to only those hands that they were involved in and has been forwarded to the management.”
A quote from Party's reply to my e-mail last week.

Re: Party High Stakes Winners and Losers (datamined)
 

I think datamining makes things more fair. Otherwise, people who are friends with a lot of other poker players could share data and have a huge database. People who are isolated and don't have access to someone else's data would be at a disadvantage. Data mining levels the playing field, anyone who has the ability to play online has the ability to data mine.

Re: Party High Stakes Winners and Losers (datamined)
 

[ QUOTE ]
. An important poker concept is you have to pay for information: no reward comes without risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I buy this at all.

Re: Party High Stakes Winners and Losers (datamined)
 

i don't understand why everyone thinks datamining is unfair. you know we are playing poker right? a game which rewards people who have studied/learned/gained more information than the other people? you read a book, you know more about poker, you beat the people who know less about poker. you datamine you collect information, you know more than the people who did not datamine.

Re: Party High Stakes Winners and Losers (datamined)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
. An important poker concept is you have to pay for information: no reward comes without risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I buy this at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have phrased it as an opinion.

Different games have different customs. Some people like games like Anaconda with half the deck wild. In the same vein, I've always preferred that you have to pay to see the cards. I wouldn't like it if someone who wasn't playing recorded my play at a casino and used it to build a book on me.

(Of course the uncalled player can show, and the entire table gets to see hands that are showndown, but you get my drift)

Edit: My point is not that datamining is unfair, but that I like the game better without it.

Re: Party High Stakes Winners and Losers (datamined)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't understand why everyone thinks datamining is unfair. you know we are playing poker right? a game which rewards people who have studied/learned/gained more information than the other people? you read a book, you know more about poker, you beat the people who know less about poker. you datamine you collect information, you know more than the people who did not datamine.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is probably a better word, but it is unfair to the existing players in a limit with such a small existing player base. The new guy moving up will have an unfair edge because the other existing player has no idea, nor the opportunity to see how he plays at that limit.

Meh. I like arguing about it way more then I actually believe it's that bad.

Re: Party High Stakes Winners and Losers (datamined)
 

All you 1/2 players should obviously be datamining the 50/100 games so that those dataminers who are moving up don't have an unfair advantage on you. Umm...right.

Re: Party High Stakes Winners and Losers (datamined)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The new guy moving up will have an unfair edge because the other existing player has no idea, nor the opportunity to see how he plays at that limit.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good point, but it's somewhat mitigated by Party allowing players to change screennames every so often. Every six months a seasoned 1-2 veteran can be this "new guy."