Re: Canterbury 8/16, Preflop question
 

8 to the flop? You'll almost certainly have the implied odds to continue for one bet to the turn, you just don't want to have to pay that bet.

Re: Canterbury 8/16, Preflop question
 

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You realize if you "raise for set value" you're going to get around 7 to 1 pot odds on a ~7.5 to 1 shot? This thinking makes no sense.

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B&M. Eight to the flop. If 8 more big bets don't go in this pot I'm an arabian monkey.

Re: Canterbury 8/16, Preflop question
 

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Playing around with PokerStove I generally found that a broad selection of typical limping hands in the first four hands (Ace rag, Ace and King small suited, suited connectors, small pocket pairs) had about 15% equity, while 99 had 25% equity. Of course that assumes they all go to the river, but it already points to a pretty large equity difference.

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This is one of those cases where you have to careful with PT. About 8% of your PT equity comes from making a set on the turn or river. If you give that 8% back to the rest of the field, 99 basically has no edge.

Elsewhere in this thread, someone said 99,TT, and JJ all play alike. The big difference between these hands is that an overcard will flop about 50% to JJ, but almost 75% to 99. The better the chance of an overcard, the more likely you're going to have to fold on the flop and not realize that 8% from the turn and river. JJ is far better than 99, in that respect.

99 has some equity edge against a large field, and is probably borderline between a limp and a raise. JJ is not 99 and you're giving up a lot of equity by not raising. 66, for instance, will flop overcards so often that you probably shouldn't be raising it unless you know 8 people will call your raise - even though 66 still shows a PT equity edge against 5 hands.

Re: Canterbury 8/16, Preflop question
 

Having an edge even if small certaily in no way justifies a limp being more profitable.

Also, for a lot of arguments justifying one or the other there is a reasonable counterargument. For example, raising does bloat the pot somewhat and yes it will make it slightly more difficult to win unimproved. However, it will also tie opponents to the pot a bit more when you flop your set. And I really don't think with this sized field you're going to have much luck protecting unimproved either way.

Re: Canterbury 8/16, Preflop question
 

I think this means thread over

Made for ppl fuzzy on the subject of implied odds preflop and how it works compared to how many bets are in and what u put it.

Re: Canterbury 8/16, Preflop question
 

i voted for raise.

and i'll also say one thing. ed miller's infamous hawaiin garden preflop quiz had 99 in the bb where he raised. so if that is correct, i can't see why raising in position wouldn't be correct. this is such an auto-raise for me i'm a little surprised by the discussion.

btw people saying 99 needs to flop a set to win are way undervaluing the stregnth of this hand.

Re: Canterbury 8/16, Preflop question
 

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Limp everytime, you don't have a large enough equity edge to justify raising with 5 limpers preflop. When you're up against that many opponents play 99 for set value.

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i am going to have to disagree. raise for value and play some poker on the flop.

Re: Canterbury 8/16, Preflop question
 

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but I don't see what's so wrong with limping along for set value. You're gonna dislike about 70% of the flops that come, right?


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you realize you'll dislike about 70% of the flops when you have AK/AQ right? so thats not a good argument for not raising 99.

Re: Canterbury 8/16, Preflop question
 

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ed miller's infamous hawaiin garden preflop quiz had 99 in the bb where he raised. so if that is correct, i can't see why raising in position wouldn't be correct. this is such an auto-raise for me i'm a little surprised by the discussion.


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IIRC, Sklansky recommends limping w/ JJ in these situations in HPFAP.

Re: Canterbury 8/16, Preflop question
 

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IIRC, Sklansky recommends limping w/ JJ in these situations in HPFAP.

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it should also be noted that a typical commerce 9/18 table plays more like a 4/8 hawaiin gardens table then it does a decent-tough 30/60 vegas game.