Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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JJ is actually 5th best starting hand.
AA, KK, QQ, AK, JJ...

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AK is better than JJ? That's news to me. I'll guarantee you that I've made more money with JJ, but whatever.

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But tell me what happened if he raises like you want him too, and their is a A or K that flops. Now what?

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Sometimes you get flops you don't like. That's poker. By that logic, I'd fold kings pre-flop just in case an ace is coming.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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FYP. If the KK reraises to 270, you're getting 2.25:1 (405 in the middle against a 180 call). If the enemy plays AK-AQ and AA-QQ the same way, that's a pos-EV call. And you go broke to that flop, IMO.

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Ugh, I hate this. Reverse implied odds KILL you here. I'm not willing to invest half my stack out of position preflop with JJ. If you're going to play after the reraise, I think you have to push.

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I understand, but the enemy is committed. I don't see the PF push-three-bet as giving you any FE at all. I shut down if an A hits the flop and push most of the time otherwise.

JJ OOP is difficult with a stack this shallow. On a deeper stack, I can get away, but I don't think so here. If I know the raiser well and know he won't raise without an overpair, then it's a totally different story.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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JJ OOP is difficult with a stack this shallow. On a deeper stack, I can get away, but I don't think so here. If I know the raiser well and know he won't raise without an overpair, then it's a totally different story.

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What if he only raises with overpairs and AK?

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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Well also we are pretty shortstacked!


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Wtf are you talking about?!?! You have almost 700 chips in an 800 chip game.

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I just don't understand how playing this way with JJ is so common, it just seems so terrible to me.


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You mean limp/calling/stuffing flop?

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Sometimes it at least has some merit, but in this situation I think it's just mindless.

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Being careful with JJ early is good in a 33 b/c proper late game play is particularly poor and the hero already has reads that would lead one to believe he is behind or only slightly ahead of mp2.

FWIW I'm liable to limp/fold preflop here and I don't think it's particularly horrible (in fact, I think it's *good*). Raising is an option too but in the 800 chip game you're getting raised behind and almost pot committed vs. what's likely to be at best overs. I'm more likely to do this in a 1000 chip game.

By limping and seeing a flop that was unraised preflop you will have a much better idea of where you may stand and how to play the flop. If it is raised preflop by a player who is more or less solid, you can muck and know that playing an overcard flop or an undercard flop would be tricky as you're liable to go broke quite often or just win a relatively small amount of chips.

I think limp/calling a substantial raise is the worst way to play this hand when OOP (unless it was someone like MP1 who raised preflop).

Yugoslav
Who thinks folding is sublime...

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

You guys know I've basically given up on trying to persuade anyone to raise PF (because no one does), but I'll just say raising to 100 and having a solid player behind you make it 300 is the only way to avoid going broke here.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Oh my god I agreed with Yugo on a hand. What has the world come to....

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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JJ OOP is difficult with a stack this shallow. On a deeper stack, I can get away, but I don't think so here. If I know the raiser well and know he won't raise without an overpair, then it's a totally different story.

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What if he only raises with overpairs and AK?

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You're still pos-EV. Pokerstove says overpairs and AK are a 63/35 favorite to the JJ, which is still under two to one. That assumes you can see the river for free, of course -- which usually isn't the case.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

It seems obvious to me that a 3x raise is justified here for pre-flop informational purposes. So, you raise to 90. K-K probably raised to 270 or goes all-in. Given your read on him as not crazy, I probably believe him and throw away at this point and look for a better spot, figuring I'm either down to AA, KK, QQ and a 4.5:1 dog, or coin-flipping it with AK. Neither sounds fun to me, and you still have plenty of chips to make something happen.

You definitely do NOT have to go broke on this hand. The mistake was not pushing out the riff-raff and gathering information pre-flop.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

45,

I agree with your posts, UTG+1 is auto-raise with JJ especially with the med stack. KK will re-raise and I can make the call if I feel villian will re-raise with AK or fold if I feel he has what he's supposed to, QQ-AA.

Limping JJ is playing it like 77 or 66 for set value, your stack is too small to play them like small PPs.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Let's face it, most of the time a player will go broke with this hand because most of the time a player doesn't run into this situation, i.e., a higher overpair. Yes, you could have raised and then folded to a re-raise, putting him on QQ, KK, or AA, but unless you are extremely tight, I think you still would have to take a flop here. Either way, once you committed yourself to calling the raise and seeing the flop, you HAD to get all of your money in post-flop. With your stack that low, there is absolutely NO way you can fold on the flop, to do so would be a total tragedy.

I don't mind calling with jacks in early position and then calling any raise behind, with the intention of mucking if there are overcards on the flop and lots of action, and making a move if you're an overpair. The deception value is high and the risks are much lower than trying to play jacks strongly out of position.

But the point is, you pretty much have to see a flop here, and you pretty much have to push post-flop. You just got unlucky.