Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]

The T, total depravity, means that all men are created evil and damned


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.

And you have not shown that Calvin said God created the lost for the sole purpose of condemning them.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]

I will change my statement to that they were created, foreordained to damnation without ever having the possibility of being saved.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe in God's omniscient foreknowledge the same is true.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

Im interested in how he answers the question he seems to be avoiding.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

who's talking to who now? I'm confused. Notready said "wrong" in his reply to BluffThis but he was quoting spaminator...

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The T, total depravity, means that all men are created evil and damned


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

John Calvin: "there are babies a span long in hell"



[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I will change my statement to that they were created, foreordained to damnation without ever having the possibility of being saved.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe in God's omniscient foreknowledge the same is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not logically true since if God had no intent to create them in the first place He would not know their response, and in no way limits the free will of those foreknown to be damned. He created them for eternal life with Him, but knows that they will not repsond. If He did not create those foreknown to be damned by their own choice, then there would effectively be no free will.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]

John Calvin: "there are babies a span long in hell"


[/ QUOTE ]

Give me a citation for this. I can multiply the Reformed theologians who believe all babies are saved. Augustine didn't, I don't know about Calvin. BTW, what does this have to do with what you said is total depravity?

If God knows someone will not believe and creates him that person is foreordained to not believe. That doesn't violate free will.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]

Notready said "wrong" in his reply to BluffThis but he was quoting spaminator...


[/ QUOTE ]

?

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

John Calvin: "there are babies a span long in hell"


[/ QUOTE ]

Give me a citation for this. I can multiply the Reformed theologians who believe all babies are saved. Augustine didn't, I don't know about Calvin. BTW, what does this have to do with what you said is total depravity?

If God knows someone will not believe and creates him that person is foreordained to not believe. That doesn't violate free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Institutes of Relgion, section 9, although I can't quote the entire text. And if various reformed theologians believe babies can be saved, must they not also believe in baptism of infants? It is true however, that Calvin in his commentaries on the gospels said that all babies are not excluded per se and in fact are dedicated to God, and thus if reading that passage alone you might not think it possible that he believed babies could be damned. But when taken together with other quotes such as above, it is clear that he meant only that some babies are called while some are not.

A quote from the puritan preacher Jonathan Edwards:
"Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!"

Regarding total depravity, you are correct that it does not deal per se with what I said, but rather about man being unable to save himself. Nonetheless, that doctrine presupposes that the effect of orginal sin is damnation without a response to the gospel.

If you do not agree that this is what Calvin meant, then anwer the New Guinea question I have put before and which I will now place concretely in time. A tribesman in the inner regions of New Guinea dies 1 month after Jesus' resurrection. Thus there was no possibility of his having heard the gospel preached. From all that you believe and read in the bible, could such a man possibly have been saved? Please don't cop out with a "I hope and pray that God would save such a person" response since the condition is that the man positively could not have heard the gospel.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

You might do better either by asking me what I believe about infants or trying to be accurate about what Calvinism (as distinguished from Calvin) believes. I don't know because the Bible doesn't say definitely. Human reason might conclude that babies are condemned because of total depravity but Jesus said "Such are the Kingdom of God" - so I don't know.

I've said before and I'll repeat it - the tribesman could be saved because God can save whoever He wants.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

OK I should have phrased it better. Do you think it likely that he was saved without having heard the gospel? Remember we are talking about an anonymous hypothetical man and not about a specific person so you are not being asked to make a judgement reserved to God about a specific person's eternal fate, just what the probability is.