Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
To put it simply, the interpretation of the Old Testament by modern day Jews is false.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are such an arrogant little prick, telling us that we aren't interpreting our own bible correctly. We are the ones who received the bible and the Oral Law from God. The idea that Christians can interpret it better is ridiculous. You guys don't even know Hebrew. We just believe what the bible actually says, while you guys ridiculously conclude that the text means the exact opposite of what it actually says. I've discussed this in detail in other threads, and none of you have been able to refute me.

To give just one example, the bible says in many places that sincere repentence alone atones for sins, and there are several examples of those who had their sins forgiven without bringing a blood sacrifice. So Christians irrationally conclude that a blood sacrifice (or belief in Jesus) is necessary to atone for sin. Why? They get this belief from their false "new testament," which contradicts the bible on just about everything. Due to their false Christian beliefs, they are unable to interpret the bible objectively to see what is really says. Their false beliefs blind them to the truth.


[ QUOTE ]
Jesus Christ, the Incarnated Word of God, perfectly fulfilled the prophecies of the old Testament, created a New Covenant and proved it all by his Ressurection. Without the Ressurection, there would be no basis for belief.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Jesus didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophecies. These include: world peace, universal knowledge of God, Temple rebuilt, all Jews back in Israel with the messiah ruling as king, etc. These prohecies are fulfilled only in the minds of delusional Christians, whose false beliefs blind them to the real truth as presented in the Hebrew bible.

There is no evidence that Jesus even existed, never mind that the resurrection ocurred. In any case, an alleged resurrection doesn't prove anything. God specifically commanded us not to follow people like jesus, even if they produce a miracle. But there is no evidence that it happened at all. Most religions have "holy" books that contain stories about all the miracles of their god(s) or prophet. The Koran says that Mohammed rode to heaven on a white horse. Why don't you accept that as proof that the Koran is true, and that Mohammed was a true prophet from God? And some angel appeared to Jospeh Smith. By your "logic," that should prove that Mormonism is the correct religion. If you disagree, then you are just interpreting the bible incorrectly.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

"God specifically commanded us not to follow people like jesus, even if they produce a miracle."

That is the single biggest piece of information I have heard to make me disbelieve Judaism. There is NO WAY God could have said that. Unless God is a moron or a liar. What he said, if he said anything at all, is that you shouldn't follow someone who APPEARS to have produced a miracle.

If you believe Jesus was resurrected, you must believe in some form of Christianity (not necessarily Peter666's version though). I don't give a rat's ass if God said differently. Right BluffTHIS and Not Ready?

By the way, why don't you capitalize Jesus's name?

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

I think that for the most part, both NotReady and I are through with Boss and his logical circles, tautologies and convenient interpretations. Just regarding the blood sacrifice versus sincere repentance thing for example. Do a search on the old testament/hebrew bible for the word "atonement" and see how many times "sincere repentance" comes up, and I mean alone and without an injunction to subsequently have a priest make such a blood sacrifice. Then compare to how many times that word comes up in conjunction with blood sacrifices. But of course since the Jews don't actually have a temple or a levitical priesthood now they can't make a blood sacrifice, hence the necessity of denying the need for same. The fact of the matter is that the most orthodox judaism practiced today resembles very little the judaism practiced 2000 years ago, yet to BossJJ that means nothing.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

"You are such an arrogant little prick, telling us that we aren't interpreting our own bible correctly. We are the ones who received the bible and the Oral Law from God. The idea that Christians can interpret it better is ridiculous."

I love it. You see, that is the same reaction that Jesus got when confronting the hypocritical Pharisees. And they had Him crucified (while letting go of a murderer).

Even if you don't believe Jesus was God, you can still see that his execution was unjust, as Pontius Pilate readily admitted.

The thing is, if I believe a man resurrects Himself, I believe Him to be God. Unless you can prove to me that He did not resurrect, you cannot sway me on my argument. Of course, that proof is impossible to find, and there is more proof that Jesus existed than Abraham. How do you like that for a Final Solution? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

See Deuteronomy 13:1-5:

"If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder of which they spoke comes to pass, and they say, "Come let us follow other gods" (whom you have not known) "and let us serve them" - do not heed the words of those prophets or those who divine by dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you indeed love the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. The LORD your God you shall follow, him alone you shall fear, his commandments you shall keep, his voice you shall obey, him you shall serve, and to him you shall hold fast. But those prophets or those who divine by dreams shall be put to death for having spoken a perversion against the LORD your God--who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery--to turn you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst."

The problem is that many religions claim miracles. It would be impossible to investigate them all to see which, if any are, real miracles. God tells us simply to obey what He told us, to follow His Torah. That is the standard of what is true, not who produces the biggest miracle. Riding to heaven on a white horse is a pretty big miracle too, yet Christians don't become Muslims because of that. I doubt they've investigated any of the miracles of Hindus or Buddhists either. They just believe what they want to. In the bible, Elijah raised someone from the dead, but we don't worship him or assume he's the messiah. The real messiah will fulfill the messianic prophecies.

God told us to follow His Torah forever (e.g. - Dt 29:28, Ecc. 13:14, Is 40:8, Ps 111:7-8, Ex 31:16, Num 15:23), and not to change it (Deut 4:2). He also told us not to follow those like Jesus or the gt authors who say not to follow it, that we are always to follow God (Dt 6:12-15, Ps 81:8-9). The bible specifically says that even after the real messiah comes, we will still follow Torah law (Ezekiel 11:19-20, 37:24, 44:9, Zach 14:16).

God's laws are absolute and eternal. He spoke to the entire Jewish nation when He gave us His Torah. He commanded us to follow His Torah forever and not to change it. The bible also says God doesn't lie or change His mind (num 23:19). It doesn't make sense that he would then change His mind and give a new set of rules or a new religion every few hundred years or so. And that we're supposed to figure out who He really sent judging by the miracles they allegedly produce, that we should follow the type of person He specifically commanded us not to follow, and that we know longer need to follow laws that He said were eternal. Christianity is simply incompatible with what God tells us in the bible.

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, why don't you capitalize Jesus's name?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually do. It was just a typo.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that for the most part, both NotReady and I are through with Boss and his logical circles, tautologies and convenient interpretations. Just regarding the blood sacrifice versus sincere repentance thing for example. Do a search on the old testament/hebrew bible for the word "atonement" and see how many times "sincere repentance" comes up, and I mean alone and without an injunction to subsequently have a priest make such a blood sacrifice. Then compare to how many times that word comes up in conjunction with blood sacrifices. But of course since the Jews don't actually have a temple or a levitical priesthood now they can't make a blood sacrifice, hence the necessity of denying the need for same. The fact of the matter is that the most orthodox judaism practiced today resembles very little the judaism practiced 2000 years ago, yet to BossJJ that means nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact of the matter is there are several examples in the bible of those who received atonement without bringing a blood sacrifice, including King David. "Sacrifice and offering thou dost not desire; but thou hast given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering thou hast not required" (Ps 40:6, a psalm of David).

There are also several verses where God specifically says, "repent, and I will forgive you." Some verses specifically say that a sacrifice is not required. I gave tons of verses in the other thread. That shows that even before Jesus' alleged time a blood sacrifice wasn't required.

After predicting that the Temple will be destroyed, the prophets specifically say that it's the prayer of repentance that will replace the sacrifices (e.g. - Hosea 14:2-2). They don't say anything like, "believing in the death and resurection of the messiah will atone for your sins." The real messiah has a different role, and Jesus didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophecies.

You are also ignoring the fact that Jesus' alleged death wasn't a proper sacrifice. It had to be done in the Temple (Dt 12:10-14), the blood had to be sprinkled on the altar (Lev 17:11), he wasn't the proper type of animal, nor was he unblemished (according to the gt). Also, the blood sacrifices only atoned for unintentional sins (Num 15:27-31), and they didn't atone for the sins of anybody else (so each person had to bring his own sacrifice). For more info:

Could Jesus' Death Atone for Sin?

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/response.html

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"You are such an arrogant little prick, telling us that we aren't interpreting our own bible correctly. We are the ones who received the bible and the Oral Law from God. The idea that Christians can interpret it better is ridiculous."

[/ QUOTE ]

I love it. You see, that is the same reaction that Jesus got when confronting the hypocritical Pharisees. And they had Him crucified (while letting go of a murderer).

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand by my statement. You Christians are being arrogant in claiming that you can interpret our bible better than us. You "interpret" it to mean the exact opposite of what is says, and you follow a "messiah" who failed to fulfill a single messianic prophecy. The Christian idea of "messiah" is based on the pagan saviors like Mythra, not the bible.

As I discussed in the other thread, the Pharisees were actually humble, compassionate people who followed God. They weren't hypocritcal at all. The gt lies about them because it is full of antisemitism and is just looking to discredit Judaism. We know from the writings of Philo, Josephus and others, that it was Pilate who was extremely brutal, crucifying thousands of Jews.

How would you feel about a book that claimed that Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II were evil pedophiles? And this book claims that the Pope and cardinals killed their god, who was resurrected from the dead. Would that prove to you that their god is God? Would that show that your "new covenant" is no longer in effect, and that you have beeen interpreting the bible incorrectly? What would it take for God to convince you that Christianity is no longer the correct religion to follow? Why aren't you investigating the claims of miracles of other religions? For example, Hindu gods have done some miraculous stuff.

Or do you think Christianity is true because it became very popular? However, Islam spread even faster, and it's the fasting growing religion in the world. Does that make it true? How can you be sure that Christianity is still the correct religion to follow?

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you don't believe Jesus was God, you can still see that his execution was unjust, as Pontius Pilate readily admitted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it was unjust. Assuming he even existed, there's no credible evidence that the Jews had anything to do with Jesus' death. The Jews putting someone to death was actually quite rare, happening less than once every 70 years.

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, if I believe a man resurrects Himself, I believe Him to be God. Unless you can prove to me that He did not resurrect, you cannot sway me on my argument. Of course, that proof is impossible to find, and there is more proof that Jesus existed than Abraham. How do you like that for a Final Solution?

[/ QUOTE ]

Knowing that God is not a man, a better assumption is that God resurrected the man, not that the man is God. There isn't any credible evidence that Jesus even existed. As I discussed in the other thread, there is nothing written about him from his alleged lifetime. There should be, if he really did all the miraculous things the gt claims. Somebody would have noticed.

As for a resurrection, that requires even more evidence. The burden of proof is on you to show it's true. But we have nothing at all. Most of the popular pagan gods of the time also had a resurrection of the dead, as well as a virgin birth. That's why the gt authors made the same claims for Jesus. By your logic, all those pagan gods are God also.

As for Abraham, that's irrelevant. I haven't made any claims about him. I believe He existed because the bible says he did. You Christians supposedly believe in the Hebrew bible as well, so this is a silly argument. If the Hebrew bible isn't true, then how can you claim that Jesus was the same God, or that he's the messiah predicted there? If you discredit the Hebrew bible, you prove that Christianity is wrong as well.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

My PostTracker Software is issuing warning signs that Semi-Automated Posting Bots are now In Use on this Thread.

PairTheBoard

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

Do you realize, that by trying to discredit Christians, you have ended up discrediting the Jews even more?

If the Pharisee's were so humble and nice, why did they demand the crucifiction of an innocent man as shown by eyewitness accounts, and why did thousands of Jews convert to Christianity shortly after the Resurrection? Your dumb ass argument of men not wanting to be circumcised in previous threads does not apply to men already circumcised.

I have no problems about anyone claiming JP II or Mother Teresa were pedophiles, so long as they have evidence to back it up.

Did you assert that the "miraculous" workings of Hindu deities are real????? I thought you were Jewish, not pagan.

True Christianity requires more personal sacrifice than any other religion, so it is remarkable that it spread so quickly, especially under persecution. Islam spread because of the political nature of the territory where it sprouted. The freeing of slaves who converted to Islam was a major factor, plus the relative ease of practice.

In regards to the historical life of Jesus, we have eyewitness accounts of men who knew Him personally written in the Bible, plus an unbroken lineage of Popes and Bishops from the Apostles themselves.

And it is funny how you tried to skip around my Abraham point by calling it irrelavent. You are trying to convince me that Jesus was not a real historical figure, and Christianity is a sham despite all the evidence, but the person whom God made the first Covenant with initiating your religion, Abraham, has far more historical proof of existence?!!! A person who existed thousands of years prior, in a nomadic like culture???

You are by far the stupidest Jew, sorry, I mean Pagan, I have ever had to debate. See you at the Yoga classes.

Re: affects of 2+2 on me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you realize, that by trying to discredit Christians, you have ended up discrediting the Jews even more?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong yet again. It is not Jews who believe in the fictional gt and worship a mythical man instead of God. We Jews just believe what God tells us in the Hebrew bible, while Christians, Muslims and Mormons have invented false religions that contradict the Hebrew bible. The fairy tales about miracles in the gt are no more believable than those of any other allegely "holy" book, none of which are really from God at all.

[ QUOTE ]
If the Pharisee's were so humble and nice, why did they demand the crucifiction of an innocent man as shown by eyewitness accounts, and why did thousands of Jews convert to Christianity shortly after the Resurrection? Your dumb ass argument of men not wanting to be circumcised in previous threads does not apply to men already circumcised. I have no problems about anyone claiming JP II or Mother Teresa were pedophiles, so long as they have evidence to back it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed the point, which is that the Pharisees did not do that at all. And you have no evidence at all to back it up. All of the gt's antisemitic lies just proves that it is fiction and that it wasn't written by Jews. You don't prove anything by quoting a work of fiction. It's like quoting the Koran to prove that Islam is true.

Nor is there any evidence of Jesus' alleged resurrection; Nor did thousands of Jews convert to Christianity after the alleged resurrection. No one from Jesus' alleged lifetime noticed him at all. The stories of his resurection were invented decades after they supposedly happened, and they were based on similar stories about pagan gods. Once the Jews heard of this story through Paul and pagan converts, they overwhlemingly rejected Jesus, because Jews are smart enough to realize that anyone who failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies obviously can't be the messiah.

So then this piece of fiction was spread to illiterate pagans who had know way of knowing what the real messiah was supposed to be and do. The pagans were not circumcised.

No one from Jesus' alleged lifetime noticed him at all. We have nothing from his alleged lifetime. Everything written about him came decades or hundred of years later.