Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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Pusher (MP) is not crazy, just average bad. Overcaller (CO) is absolutely horrible (90/44) preflop, postflop, hell hes bad at sitting at the table.

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If both players are that bad, you made a pretty big mistake by not reraising preflop.

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maybe its just me, but i win next to zero big pots after putting in a 2nd raise pf (unless it happens to be AA v KK and we know a 40pfr's range is way bigger than simply big pps). even maniacs know that a reraise = a big hand in this game. the majority of the time i reraise in this situation i lead the flop and its folded. is the deception worth the risk? i dont mind it and am perfectly comfortable with it.

once again, maybe its just me.

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Reraise with more than just AA-KK then against a 40% preflop raiser. Make the raise big enough so that villain is making a mistake by calling, and more importantly, don't give him implied odds by overplaying 1 pair after the flop. Not losing big pots is just as important as winning them. Just my 2 cents.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

this has turned out to be a great thread - awesome read, guys.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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A bit arrogant aren't we?

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indeed

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Your $20 v. $10 argument is ridiculous, top poker isn't binary.

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Where in the post are we talking about top poker? I thought this was $100 6max.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

This hand would be alot easier to play if you had made it about 15 preflop.

As played, get all your money in on the flop

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

"omg, i gave up some equity pf because i know it would kill/severely limit my action against the moron postflop"

How about "Yeah, playing KK with 3 other players who could have anything may not be an ideal situation"

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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A bit arrogant aren't we?

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indeed

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Your $20 v. $10 argument is ridiculous, top poker isn't binary.

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Where in the post are we talking about top poker? I thought this was $100 6max.

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This was going to be my exact response. Thanks. And to Ghaz's last post, yes the guy will have to adjust and learn to play postflop at the higher level. But he will be adequately bankrolled for it and it's not like all of a sudden when you jump up a level, pushing AA preflop every time magically becomes -EV. It will just be somewhat less +EV than it used to be. And then he will see that he can make more money playing it slower. And he still won't be -EV with AA playing it slower. He will just be less +EV than he could be. And then he will make adjustments and get better at the higher level.

And all of this will make him more money than trying to play the way that beats the higher limits at the lower limits because his opponents won't be reacting the same way at the lower limits anyways so his 'practice' isn't really helping him anyways and all he is doing it keeping himself at lower limits longer than he has to and he is getting into the habit of justifying sub-optimal play as 'mixing it up' or 'practicing' or whatever and then he won't recognize when he's on subtle tilt and a lot of other bad things will happen.

I guarantee you that if you always make what you think is the optimal play for the specific hand that you are in without considering any other 'practice' consequences or 'mixing it up' consequences or 'deception' consequences, you will kill every level up to and including 5/10. And I really don't think Mr. .01/.02 NL will mind destroying the games for months and months and making many thousand dollars just because he never practiced playing AA postflop until he got up to .1/.25 NL or whatever.

Both Ghaz and Grunch are too smart for their own good.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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If you re-raise pre flop that pretty much eliminates someone having A4 suited or something like that and makes this hand a lot easier to play on the other streets.

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i agree. Play up those cowboys.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

I said I don't play 6 max because I am still in the process of figuring out how to play TAG at a full table. 6 max I think is tougher to multi table (I usually only play 2 tables so I can really learn opponents). Soon as I get in my 50k hands between nl25 and nl50 I will probably switch over and try that out for a few hands.

Getting back to the hand ... I guess I understand your line but I guess from all the posts you see where we all see the risks taken to win this big pot.

Having experience of betting with scare cards on the board is very important so I understand where that development is also interesting... something I will have to work on as well.

Guin

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

Reraise preflop, I think you got CO(QQ,JJ) beat but i have a good feeling MP is winning this hand. Lay it down and remember to reraise preflop and push on flop next time, you will not have to post here as often.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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A bit arrogant aren't we?

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indeed



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mmmmmm, indubitably.

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Your $20 v. $10 argument is ridiculous, top poker isn't binary.

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Where in the post are we talking about top poker? I thought this was $100 6max.

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My mistake. I assumed people wanted to play and the absolute best and extract the absolute most they could (top poker) at any stakes.