Re: Flopped da\' nuts - how to get value?
 

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The other benefit of this line is that if you do it a couple of times in a session, villains start to think you're running over them and eventually call only to find that you really have it.


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If you mean that you should do this as a bluff sometimes, then villain's won't find out anything because you will be out of money and will need to go back to lower limits to rebuild. If you mean that you should do this a few times with the nuts until they finally call it because 'you can't have the nuts that many times'....how many times do you think I flop the nuts? You must play differently than I do, because I never flop the nuts. Can't remember the last time before this hand. FWIW, I think this opponent is the only guy in the whole game (i.e. 2/4 6m on skins) who folds to this 3-bet. And very few people fold a set to a push here (although of course they would be correct to do so). So yes my horrible line probably makes me money against most people. But it is still horrible. And your worse line will probably make you money against most people, if they have a set, but it is still worse.

Re: Flopped da\' nuts - how to get value?
 

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once again refer to what i said before so you can realize how ridiculous this is. that only makes sense on a draw heavy board where there is another hand tha tvillain can conveniently put hero on. here, no such other hand exists.

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Ok so you fold 88 here?

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without much hesitation.

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People like you are the reason my won when saw flop stat in this game is approx 100% [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Flopped da\' nuts - how to get value?
 

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once again refer to what i said before so you can realize how ridiculous this is. that only makes sense on a draw heavy board where there is another hand tha tvillain can conveniently put hero on. here, no such other hand exists.

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Ok so you fold 88 here?

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without much hesitation.

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People like you are the reason my won when saw flop stat in this game is approx 100% [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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wtf are you talking about? either i misunderstand or you are saying you push every hand you have for a ridiculous overbet on dry boards that have no draws and never run into the nuts. if that's what you do then congratulations. if that's not what you mean then this statement makes no sense.

Re: Flopped da\' nuts - how to get value?
 

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once again refer to what i said before so you can realize how ridiculous this is. that only makes sense on a draw heavy board where there is another hand tha tvillain can conveniently put hero on. here, no such other hand exists.

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Ok so you fold 88 here?

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without much hesitation.

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People like you are the reason my won when saw flop stat in this game is approx 100% [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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wtf are you talking about? either i misunderstand or you are saying you push every hand you have for a ridiculous overbet on dry boards that have no draws and never run into the nuts. if that's what you do then congratulations. if that's not what you mean then this statement makes no sense.

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I was jokingly referencing the fact that people in the 2/4 game seem incredibly willing to fold unless they have the absolute stones.

Re: Flopped da\' nuts - how to get value?
 

I meant that overbetting the nuts gets paid off enough times that it compensates for the many more times it doesn't get paid off because villain correctly folds. If your read on villain is that he is one of the few who will fold bottom set to a 3-bet, then this line won't work at all with him and any other line is better (call, then bet/raise the turn, etc.).

And I don't recommend bluffing like this, especially after villain has shown strength, because it doesn't work very well, as you point out.

And how often to I flop the nuts? Not very often. But I find myself in situations sometimes that I end up with the nuts and I figure a villain who will call a pot-sized bet will probably call an overbet too, so I over bet and seem to make at least the same amount over all as if I just value bet in each of those situations.

For example, there was a family pot limped to me with Axs in CO, and I limped. Every body checked the flop. One guy bet a $1 on the turn (now w/ 2-spades), and everybody called. A spade hit on the river and that same guy bet the pot into my nut flush. I put him on a non-nut flush, and figured if he'd call a raise, he'd probably call an all-in. I pushed $150 into a $30 pot and got paid off.

Now, your read and this hand have a lot of clear differences from that example, but the idea I was trying to articulate was that if villain is willing to call a big 3-bet, he'll probably call an all-in 3-bet, so you might as well go all-in. Other lines that try to pot commit him on later streets are fine too, but you end up in a tough spot if the board pairs.

Any way, I don't think other lines are bad. I especially don't dislike your line. I'm just saying that pushing gets paid off enough against random villains that it might be worth a try in a spot like this (minus the read that this is a guy that would never fall for it).

Re: Flopped da\' nuts - how to get value?
 

I agree with that in general, particularly on the river. I think this is a bad spot for it, though, for the reasons that the duck outlined. And this particular opponent being weak as hell.

Re: Flopped da\' nuts - how to get value?
 

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once again refer to what i said before so you can realize how ridiculous this is. that only makes sense on a draw heavy board where there is another hand tha tvillain can conveniently put hero on. here, no such other hand exists.

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Good post. Please post more in SSNL. And that goes for Edge too.

Re: Flopped da\' nuts - how to get value?
 

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But what tips it for me is that we basically KNOW villain's cards, so we should be able to add value by outplaying him.

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Outplaying him can mean getting him to stick it in on the flop as a 2:1 dog

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Actually I think this is an exact example of Sklansky's article last month about whether to push or take a card off. Assuming the Villian has a set, I don't think he is laying down unless one of your hole cards pairs and there are 4 to a straight on the board. You will be able to get all your money in here on just about any street, but you can get it in a bit at a time here and bail if the board pairs. So what if you get it all in on the flop as a 2-1 favorite if you can get it in anyway later. You are essentially trying to fade a scare card that can put him off his hand, and you save money if the board pairs. I think in this situation it is +EV to take a card off and check raise on the turn or bet out on the river.