Re: DERB
 

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It's also slightly absurd that his biggest advocates are people who have played virtually no hands against him.
-James

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If you are refering to me, i am neither an advocate of his nor do i believe that he should be written off as a lucky maniac. Also i have played 30/60 with him since the game was offered on more than 4 tables as well as 50/100 since the split.

Edit: You seem to be taking offense to the notion that there may be something to be learned from a player with a non-conventional sytle, even if his style does turn out to be a losing one.

Edit: Im not sure why i assumed you might be refering to me... you can pretty much disregard this post.

-Brad

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe he is a marginal winner, but the supposition that he is the biggest winner in the game(expectation wise) is just absurd. It's also slightly absurd that his biggest advocates are people who have played virtually no hands against him.

[/ QUOTE ]

James,

As someone who as played a large number of hands against him, and someone who has gone on record as not seeing any genius in his post flop play, I would hardly say that I am an "advocate" of his.

However, as Brad pointed out, and I think many other people feel, there has to be something to be learned from his style. His success seems to be reasonably well documented, and when I sit on the 50/100's for 4-5 hours I notice almost all "pros" (most of whom I know see playing 20/40 or 30/60 because I assume they are breaking even at best) floundering between 1500 and 3500 in chips, all day. You glance at DERB's chip stacks and he's sitting with like 8k, 6k, 4k, and 10k - it's simply ridiculous. On the surface he appears to be doing something that the 16/12/2.5 style just can't (as in, literally impossible) do, regardless of how well you play post flop. It seems that his opponents are either unwilling to adapt to his style, or completely unable to exploit it.

I am hoping you'll elaborate more on the above and explain why you think he is only a marginal winner. You deny that what he is doing is working? You may indeed be correct, but I just don't see it.


Thanks,

Nigel

Re: Abdul Jalib - the Slovenien Connection
 

shania smells like game theory... me likey... thanks

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's also slightly absurd that his biggest advocates are people who have played virtually no hands against him.


[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true. They have the least biased opinion and can evaluate his numbers freely. They aren't conditioned to believe he is a loser simply because he capped middle pair on the turn a few times against them.

Note: I'm not accusing you of having a clouded view of this. I just wanted to clear up the above fallacy.

Re: More Derb Hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
This could be possible, but there are only so many hands that someone is willing to raise and fold to a 3 bet, and that a thin value raise(as was with the JJ hand below, which demands a fold to a 3 bet.) All those value raises turn -EV when you call a 3 bet there. I wouldn't think that many people's strategies include raising and folding a good/decent hand to a 3 bet, so 3 betting people in the hopes that they fold either the best hand, and then calling down in the hope that they are on a bluff is ridiculous.

Is there any way to manipulate the HH in some way to make it appear he is winning hands he is not?

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Just to clarify: The 3-bet the turn was simply an example of a game-theoretic adjustment that someone mentioned in this thread. My point isn't that DERB is making good plays - I have no idea. My only point is if any poker player adjusts the range of hands with which he makes a certain play to fare better against his opponents range of hands and corresponding actions, including taking into account the influence adjustments to his actions will have on his opponents' actions, then he is employing game theory.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's also slightly absurd that his biggest advocates are people who have played virtually no hands against him.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are refering to me, i am neither an advocate of his nor do i believe that he should be written off as a lucky maniac. Also i have played 30/60 with him since the game was offered on more than 4 tables as well as 50/100 since the split.

Edit: You seem to be taking offense to the notion that there may be something to be learned from a player with a non-conventional sytle, even if his style does turn out to be a losing one.

Edit: Im not sure why i assumed you might be refering to me... you can pretty much disregard this post.

-Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not referring to you.
-James

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's also slightly absurd that his biggest advocates are people who have played virtually no hands against him.


[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true. They have the least biased opinion and can evaluate his numbers freely. They aren't conditioned to believe he is a loser simply because he capped middle pair on the turn a few times against them.

Note: I'm not accusing you of having a clouded view of this. I just wanted to clear up the above fallacy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for "clearing this up" for all of us. It's not about evaluating the numbers. The numbers alone make it very likely that he is a big winner. Any high school kid could look at the numbers and arrive at that conclusion. What I'm saying is, the numbers don't get remotely close to telling the whole story with this player. There is plenty to be learned from this player, but emulating his style for full ring limit hold 'em is a losing proposition, in my opinion. It's also the opinion of J_V, paluka, 1800gambler, bk(any of you correct me if i am wrong), and pretty much every high limit player i know who has a decent number of hands vs. him. Why would so many players disagree with what seem to be completely damning evidence? I'm not sure. Maybe the jury is still out on DERB. Maybe his ace high call on the hand where he gets three-bet on the turn above was a good one. Anyways, I'm all set as far as arguing this point with people. It's obvious that neither side will budge and not obvious that both sides are even arguing about the same thing. I really don't feel very passionately about this as I hardly play limit currently, so you all can feel free to debate it!
-James

Re: DERB
 

I am not a limit expert, but I've looked through all of the DERB hands posted in this thread and, from that dozen or so, already see two common plays. At least one of them is something relatively difficult to exploit theoretically and unobservant opponents will never catch on. (Specifically, when he runs into resistance with any overpair, he's almost automatically raising when the board pairs. Coupled with his aggression on prior streets, he probably doesn't get reraised often.)

I have no idea how he plays outside of that, and some of those river calls are horrible. But I think he is at least attempting to study the game - either that, or being trained by someone who does.

Re: DERB
 

James,

FWIW I am sort of reserving judgement on the matter of DERB of being a "big winner" but I am pretty sure at this point that he is at the very least a winning player even if only marginally so. The fact that he is able to win at all in these games with that style is certainly worth looking into because it's so damn counterintuitive based on both my overall knowledge of the games he frequents and my specific knowledge of some of the crazy plays he makes.

I am certainly still open to the possibility, however, that there is something about the way his entire game fits together that enables him to be a big winner in these games. Clearly he makes lots plays that are most definately -ev in isolation, but obviously in a game as complex as limit holdem, ev doesn't exist in a vaccum and perhaps these plays are necessary components of an overall metagame that allows him to win big.

I think a detailed analysis of exactly where DERBs profit comes from (or perhaps more accurately stated, where he makes money that 17/12 types don't) would be VERY valuable. Unfortunately, I have neither the time, the requisite knowledge of database software, nor possibly even a sufficient level of expertise, to conduct such a study. The bitch of it all is that if someone does competantly conduct an analysis along these lines, and happens to find some very valuable insight, it's unlikely that it would ever end up getting posted here.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
James,

FWIW I am sort of reserving judgement on the matter of DERB of being a "big winner" but I am pretty sure at this point that he is at the very least a winning player even if only marginally so. The fact that he is able to win at all in these games with that style is certainly worth looking into because it's so damn counterintuitive based on both my overall knowledge of the games he frequents and my specific knowledge of some of the crazy plays he makes.

I am certainly still open to the possibility, however, that there is something about the way his entire game fits together that enables him to be a big winner in these games. Clearly he makes lots plays that are most definately -ev in isolation, but obviously in a game as complex as limit holdem, ev doesn't exist in a vaccum and perhaps these plays are necessary components of an overall metagame that allows him to win big.

I think a detailed analysis of exactly where DERBs profit comes from (or perhaps more accurately stated, where he makes money that 17/12 types don't) would be VERY valuable. Unfortunately, I have neither the time, the requisite knowledge of database software, nor possibly even a sufficient level of expertise, to conduct such a study. The bitch of it all is that if someone does competantly conduct an analysis along these lines, and happens to find some very valuable insight, it's unlikely that it would ever end up getting posted here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with most of what you said.
-James

Re: Abdul Jalib - the Slovenien Connection
 

While we're talking about Abdul and Slovenia...I wanted to add one little link to one of my favorite threads of all time. Abdul's Preflop Strategy

Re: DERB
 

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I hardly play limit currently,

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Your playing mostly nl now?

-Brad

Re: DERB
 

James, I'm not sure I understand how you could agree with most of what he just said.

You pretty clearly state that DERB has a losing style of play. I'm going to draw the logical next step that losing style of play = losing player. Your tacit explanation of DERB's results is that he is quite simply the luckiest poker player alive.

How could you find any value in analyzing his play?

Re: Abdul Jalib - the Slovenien Connection
 

[ QUOTE ]
shania smells like game theory... me likey... thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

One difference is game theory can be an optimal or expoitive strategy and is often taken to mean an optimal strategy, where you are playing so opponents can't exploit your tendencies.

Shania means you are trying to maximize you winnings and exploit your opponents weakness/flaws.

Re: DERB
 

sc,

Even if he is a losing player (although that's VERY unlikely at this point) he most certainly loses FAR less than he theoretically should at least by "conventional wisdom" standards, and there'd still be significant value in determining why this is the case.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have played a lot of poker though. The idea that there is a single winning style of play is false beyond reason. The fact that people can't even understand that players like DERB exist and win, and win a lot, goes a long way in illustrating how little some people know about poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't a single winning style of play. There are, however, several losing styles of play. His is one of them. Maybe he is a marginal winner, but the supposition that he is the biggest winner in the game(expectation wise) is just absurd. It's also slightly absurd that his biggest advocates are people who have played virtually no hands against him.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not an advocate of DERB's, and have barely read the threads around him, nor have ever played against him, so I have no idea how big a winner he is.

I was just agreeing w/ Andrew's general comment re: the attitude of a number of posters across these forums.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have played a lot of poker though. The idea that there is a single winning style of play is false beyond reason. The fact that people can't even understand that players like DERB exist and win, and win a lot, goes a long way in illustrating how little some people know about poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't a single winning style of play. There are, however, several losing styles of play. His is one of them. Maybe he is a marginal winner, but the supposition that he is the biggest winner in the game(expectation wise) is just absurd. It's also slightly absurd that his biggest advocates are people who have played virtually no hands against him.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not an advocate of DERB's, and have barely read the threads around him, nor have ever played against him, so I have no idea how big a winner he is.

I was just agreeing w/ Andrew's general comment re: the attitude of a number of posters across these forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I agree with that statement as well out of the context of this particular player. This is my general beef with the NL forum, for example.
-James

Re: DERB
 

Has anyone pointed out these threads or the DERB data to Mason or David? I would be very interested in analysis of his game by one or both of them.

Re: More Derb Hands
 

I have never really understood what the fascination is with Derb/Lojzka/Brizganc -- i routinely own that guy when i'm to his left. I certainly don't LIKE playing with the guy because I know he's pushed me off a couple winners with his screwball turn raises, but 3-betting him preflop is a pretty simply counter-strategy.

Do you know what kind of trash you have to raise with to get all the way to 17%?? As for postflop, I make a habit of checking behind him with my mediocre turn hands, because it nearly ALWAYS draws a river bet out of him. Sometimes the river card kills me, but more often I catch him making a losing desperation play, and he'll also call a river bet with only ace-high, as has been pointed out.

Putting this guy up on a pedestal as though he's discovered some holy grail of LHE is just silly. He makes a living out of bullying unimaginitive TAG / ABC Poker / raise-fold-to-a-3-bet 2+2ers.

Re: More Derb Hands
 

anyone have a graph on this guy? like to see what his trend looks like, if it's consistent and whatnot. Someone said they have 100k hands on him.

Re: More Derb Hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
As for postflop, I make a habit of checking behind him with my mediocre turn hands, because it nearly ALWAYS draws a river bet out of him. Sometimes the river card kills me, but more often I catch him making a losing desperation play

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
2A) Preventing his opponents from getting maximum value when they're ahead.


[/ QUOTE ]

When you start rountinely giving him free cards like this, you're playing right into his hands IMO.

Re: DERB
 

When the first derb thread showed up, like Andrew, I was the first one to believe that someone with such stats could be one of the biggest winners in a semi-tough game. Like Andrew also probably, I had dongbang in mind. Dongbang did many unconventional plays by 2+2 standards, but none of them were blatantly stupid.
Since the first DERB thread appearance, yet, I have played a decent number of hands against him, and I must say that him being one of the biggest winners in a somewhat tough game goes far beyond my current knowledge of the game.
FWIW, I have him down 43k after 10k hands in the 50-100 100-200 combined games. Also, interestingly, his vpip stat went down respectively to 26 (25) in the 50-100 (100-200) game.

Re: DERB
 

FWIW, I also have this player as a loser in my DB(-1.8BB/100). A touch under 10k hands.

Re: DERB
 

Does anyone have like 50k+ hands on him since the last thread in May?

Re: DERB
 

i've brought up some of dongbang's blatantly stupid plays, he has made them

Re: DERB
 

a little update on his play. I dont see the 30 vip. He is 24/13(last 1000 hands) and this is when he is running hot so its not due to bad cards I think.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
a little update on his play. I dont see the 30 vip. He is 24/13(last 1000 hands) and this is when he is running hot so its not due to bad cards I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, last 3988 hands he's 28.5/17.7. Since this thread came up I've datamined these games around the clock so this should be all his 50/100 hands since that time, fwiw.

___1___

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a little update on his play. I dont see the 30 vip. He is 24/13(last 1000 hands) and this is when he is running hot so its not due to bad cards I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, last 3988 hands he's 28.5/17.7. Since this thread came up I've datamined these games around the clock so this should be all his 50/100 hands since that time, fwiw.

___1___

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I have him at 22.5/13.7 in about 700 hands today. Maybe someone else is playing his account.

Re: DERB
 

Yeah ! DERB thread along with KKF occasioanl appearances are what I am looking for in limit forums [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a little update on his play. I dont see the 30 vip. He is 24/13(last 1000 hands) and this is when he is running hot so its not due to bad cards I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, last 3988 hands he's 28.5/17.7. Since this thread came up I've datamined these games around the clock so this should be all his 50/100 hands since that time, fwiw.

___1___

[/ QUOTE ]

I have him at 22.5/13.7 in about 700 hands today. Maybe someone else is playing his account.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a readjustment.