Re: was this fastplay correct?
 

is everyone starting to get the picture of what i said, even the masked man.

if you have lost a finger in an accident you will still have enough to count the cards that dont jeopardize your whole stack on whats left of your hand.

you arent going to run out all the hands you can beat that will call. you will still get many of them plus the big draws. what you want is to not give proper odds to hands that will bust you when they hit, and there are alot of these on this flop.
most cards coming off that beat you will get you broke anyway so you dont want to make it cheap for them and 160 more is cheap with the 1000 dollar starting stack.

Re: was this fastplay correct?
 

risk and reward. a simple calculation once you estimate odds you will get beat and pay off. problem i have is these games are loose enough yet respect overbets that you will lose a lot of one-pair action that will also pay you off on 4th street. just running the addition i believe the additional folding power / draw charging of the higher bet results in lower EV only if you pay off every time. but it all depends on how call-happy you think they are and what their threshold for folding is.

i also find many of these players will either check the flush or straight when they hit it or give you sufficient tells that you can fold or call to hit the boat and bust them. so i prefer to milk the monkey and take my chances, especially live.

Re: was this fastplay correct?
 

I still disagree, simply because making it 200 or 250 will often let me stack one pair hands that will get away from an overbet. This is not necessarily logical (he will fold to 400 on flop, but will call off 800 more on turn and river?), but is often the case these days in games of this size.

Re: was this fastplay correct?
 

[ QUOTE ]
so i prefer to milk the monkey and take my chances,

[/ QUOTE ]

but what happens when YOU flop a straight-flush draw?....then do you come out blasting?.....

to play devil's advocate against this idea that you and El D and Cero and others are talking about, I think it sometimes can be transparent....clearly a lot of this depends on the quality of our opponents and our own table image, but nevertheless I think it can be more +EV to always come out blasting than to always come out milking.....(and yes a balanced attack is noted)....

sure, we have more folding equity blasting, but that makes bluffing MORE effective, and it also means that when they do pay us - we get the maximum......we also inherently end up charging for draws more often, make it much tougher to have our hand read, make semi-bluffs more effective, and, inevitably people end up taking a stand (i.e. - with hands like AQ in the OP's example) with less than premiums - particularly in live games with loose players.....

as for Ray's amount, I'm not sure if he meant 400 to go or 400 more.....there's 200 in the pot after our call, and we have 930 left - making villain's implied odds 11.3 to x....I like making that x somehwere around 300 (that gives him about 3.75 to 1) so I'd probably raise 300 more......

Re: was this fastplay correct?
 

"I still disagree, simply because making it 200 or 250 will often let me stack one pair hands that will get away from an overbet. This is not necessarily logical (he will fold to 400 on flop, but will call off 800 more on turn and river?), but is often the case these days in games of this size."

this was where i was on the hand and even more so when they all folded to my flop raise. of course they may have all just flopped nothing. the reason i mentioned the guy behind me thinking im FOS is because i felt he would call my $200 on the flop with something like QJ, he's such a dickwad.

there's one more thing about my flop raise: if i get called and a safe looking card peels on the turn im pushing.

anyway ill be on this forum a bit more.

Re: was this fastplay correct?
 

why transparent? how would I play AQ or KQ?

Re: was this fastplay correct?
 

people really call $400 in a $200 pot with a flush draw? this is NL, they are only going to get to see 1 card before 6's are all in...

Re: was this fastplay correct?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why transparent? how would I play AQ or KQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

the transparent comment was applicable if you play your big draws differently, but you never commented on that so I'd first like to hear your response....

as for AQ/KQ, the main difference with those hands IMO is that it reduces the number of hands we beat if WE are holding AQ/KQ.....however, for the intents and purposes of my "point", the difference is irrelevant....whatever hand I'm holding on THAT flop being seen by FOUR players, I think a raise to $200 or whatever is not real optimal....I'd either just call (which I might do with many hands) or I'd come out blasting (which I might do with many hands).....

Re: was this fastplay correct?
 

this thread is like...informative, and stuff. what a debate!