Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[quoteObviously one of the premises has to be false. I'm saying premise 1 is false because fatalism is false.

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If you want to claim that this is a refutation of fatalism, then your argument is viciously (badly) circular. It reduces to "Fatalism is false because fatalism is false."

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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If I don't do what the demon predicts, does that mean I have free will?

Stu
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Yes. But you CANNOT do something other than what the demon predicts.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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If you want to claim that this is a refutation of fatalism, then your argument is viciously (badly) circular. It reduces to "Fatalism is false because fatalism is false."

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It reduces to Fatalism is false becuase the future cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy. This is true even with total knowledge of all facts past and present down to the smallest detail and complete understanding of all physical laws that govern our world. Quantum Mechanics backs this up.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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The fact is, the demon CAN predict what you will do -- it's just that by telling you in advance of your action, he is adding another cause into the equation. Just like entering a # into my computer program adds a cause in determining what # is printed on the screen.


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Yes but the demon knows this just as I know the computer program will display a "1" if I input "0". The difference is every prediction I make with the little computer game is supposed to be wrong and I am most certain they would all turn out wrong. I know that it is impossible for me to make an accurate prediction.

According to determinism every prediction the demon makes is supposed to be right. Determinism also holds that there is nothing the demon is unable to predict. It holds that if the demon predicts that I will eat the ice cream, then I will eat the ice cream. If the demon predicts the next character printed on the computer screen will be an "0", then a "0" will be displayed regardless of what key is actually pressed (the demon already knows what key is going to pressed).

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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If I don't do what the demon predicts, does that mean I have free will?


[/ QUOTE ] Yes. But you CANNOT do something other than what the demon predicts.

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You are indeed a true fatalist.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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The fact is, the demon CAN predict what you will do -- it's just that by telling you in advance of your action, he is adding another cause into the equation. Just like entering a # into my computer program adds a cause in determining what # is printed on the screen.


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Yes but the demon knows this just as I know the computer program will display a "1" if I input "0". The difference is every prediction I make with the little computer game is supposed to be wrong and I am most certain they would all turn out wrong. I know that it is impossible for me to make an accurate prediction.

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No it's not. You can tell me: I will enter a "0" and the computer will print a "1". You can do this as many times as you need to convince me that the computer output does not have free will, and that you have sufficient understanding of the working of it to predict its output. The demon can do the exact same thing.

The fact that your entering of the # into the computer, or the demon entering his "prediction" into your head makes you do something other than what was entered or "predicted", does not mean the demon didn't know what you would really end up doing -- it just means that he can't tell you before hand, because then you would act differently.

If you don't get this, I give up. This is very simple.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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it just means that he can't tell you before hand, because then you would act differently

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Determinism holds that once the initial conditions of the universe have been established the rest of the history of the universe follows inevitably. That means that wether or not I am fated to eat the ice cream was written 15 billion years ago at the big bang. It doesn't matter if the demon reveals to me his prediction unless I have a choice in the matter. If I have a choice then history is not inevitable as determinism holds.


Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Meh. It would also be decided before hand what the demon would tell you. Really, the scenario doesn't show anything.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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Meh. It would also be decided before hand what the demon would tell you. Really, the scenario doesn't show anything.

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If Determinism is true then the demon also does not have free will and the history of his actions were inevitably set at the creation of the universe. It would be impossible for the demon to make a prediction you could go against. The demon would either make a prediction you fulfill or make no prediction at all.

However if the demon does make a prediction and your action is opposite of that prediction, then determinism has failed. Free will exist.

The only way the senario can prove or disprove determinism is if it is actually played out. Unfortunately that will not happen and we can only think about it as a thought experiment. Its only usefulness is to clarify the intuitive.

The reason the thought experiment leads me to believe determinism is false is because I believe that if the demon made a prediction I could take the opposite action, and I can't envision a reliable process that would block the demon from making a wrong prediction. I suppose the demon could have a coronary and die just before making a wrong predicition but the probability of that is pretty low.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I think the demon is made of straw.

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The reason the thought experiment leads me to believe determinism is false is because I believe that if the demon made a prediction I could take the opposite action, and I can't envision a reliable process that would block the demon from making a wrong prediction. I suppose the demon could have a coronary and die just before making a wrong predicition but the probability of that is pretty low.

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To say the demon is impossible is a bit strong. Rather it is impossible for anyone to confirm the demons reliability.

If the demon predicts something and it does not happen, that just demonstrates that the demon is a fake.

Determinism is not proved false, the demon is just revealed as a fake, or more likely you just confused yourself and the demon was in fact correct the whole time.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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If Determinism is true then the demon also does not have free will and the history of his actions were inevitably set at the creation of the universe. It would be impossible for the demon to make a prediction you could go against.

[/ QUOTE ] No. Because determinism doesn't say, that such a being, if it existed, couldn't lie or couldn't shut up. You are the one saying that.

I have a mission for you. Go to the store tomorrow, and test out this scenario:

Assumption 1: You have money and the store has apples. They are willing to trade with you. You will try to buy apples.
Assumption 2: You can only utter the words: "I want to buy bananas." Nothing else.
Assumption 3: Except for moving your lips to say you want bananas, you can't move.
Assumption 4: The clerk will not give you apples.

Now, if we know with absolute certainty that 2 and 3 is true, we are left with 1 or 4. Which one is most likely wrong?

I have shown that it is impossible to buy apples.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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However if the demon does make a prediction and your action is opposite of that prediction, then determinism has failed. Free will exist.

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So by that reasoning, my computer program would have free will too. You KNOW the inner workings of the program. And you can predict with certainty what it will do. But you have no way of entering that prediction into the program and have it come true. I've just created a computer program that has free will. I'm a genius, no?

Paradoxes (however absurd) do not mean free will exists.

Yours is somewhat like saying time travel is impossible because of the grandfather paradox. But, it's not even as impressive as that, really. The demon could still predict your action (but not tell you), and you could still go back in time (but not kill your grandfather).

At this point, you either realize you were wrong, and your stubbornness is causing you to continue this line of reasoning; or you don't realize it, and you... well... nevermind.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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If the demon predicts something and it does not happen, that just demonstrates that the demon is a fake.

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Determinism holds that it is theoretiically possible to make 100% accurate predictions about the future. The demon is just a thought experiment to help us examine and discuss that issue as well as other issue associated with determinism. To facilitate this we assume the demon is not a fake.

I agree with you that in a "real life" situation we would have to consider the possibility the demon is a fake.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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If the demon predicts something and it does not happen, that just demonstrates that the demon is a fake.

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Determinism holds that it is theoretiically possible to make 100% accurate predictions about the future. The demon is just a thought experiment to help us examine and discuss that issue as well as other issue associated with determinism. To facilitate this we assume the demon is not a fake.

I agree with you that in a "real life" situation we would have to consider the possibility the demon is a fake.

Stu

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If you did something other than the demon said you would, then determinism would be rendered false. Note, the unpredictability of the future does not in and of itself prove free will true AND I hold it true that you could not disobey the demon (I think we established this earlier, sorry to repeat myself).

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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Determinism holds that it is theoretiically possible to make 100% accurate predictions about the future.

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I disagree.

Maybe our definition of determinism is different. I would claim that it is impossible to make 100% accurate predictions about the future, however the future is still completely determined beforehand.

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To facilitate this we assume the demon is not a fake.

The reason the thought experiment leads me to believe determinism is false is because I believe that if the demon made a prediction I could take the opposite action, and I can't envision a reliable process that would block the demon from making a wrong prediction.

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Ether you cannot falsify the demons prediction or the daemon is fake. You have only showed that your model is logical flawed and have said nothing about determinism.

Irresistible force – immovable object
Demons that never lie, but who never the less tell porkies.