Re: Holocaust Denial
 

My point was that the fact that some Jews died from disease in the camps does not excuse the the concentration camp ovens. That most American natives died from disease does not excuse the episodes of murder by the European invaders.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Nazis wanted to get rid of the Jews, but there are different ways to get rid of people. The official documents show that the intent was deportation.

I'm sure there were Nazis in the hierarchy who just intended to kill undesirables off, and many were. But this was not official policy. And like Beer and Pizza said, there is a difference between intentionally spreading disease and it happening due to circumstances. I don't think it was Nazi policy to go around coughing on undesirables and thereby eliminate them this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Peter, it is truly sad that you feel such a compulsion to mitigate the culpability of the Nazi government overall, and individual Nazis as well. Would it really matter if it were found that Ted Bundy had killed two less persons or that some of his victims died from heat exhaustion or something before he could kill them?

Chad Gadya
 

-If not for the Jewish immigration those people would still have their homes.

Please, andy, that is a terrible argument because it ignores the decades in between and host of other factors.

The fact remains that the jewish immigration began in the 19th century, and the Arab intransigence to that immigration, founded in anti-semitism and xenophobia, led to the violence that led to the UN-mandated separation of the two peoples that led to the the War of Independence 5 decades later, that led to the people not having their homes. Chad Gadya.

A colony is a land settled or conquered by an outside nation and controlled by it.

Let's use the google definition (google search: colony definition): "a body of people who settle far from home but maintain ties with their homeland; inhabitants remain nationals of their home state but are not literally under the home state's system of government"

The settlers maintained no ties with their homelands and did not remain nationals of their home state.

The Jews defined themselves as a nation, albeit an unusual one without a land. They colonized Palestine.

Using the definition above, no they didn't.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

How can knowing the truth ever mitigate a situation?

If Holocaust numbers were purposely exaggerated to garner support for the state of Israel that would not have been there otherwise, and all the injustices that came from it which we are experiencing today, and possibly nuclear war tommorrow, not knowing the truth back in the day will be very costly in terms of human life.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

Another of your famous chain of *ifs* regarding details and not the core issues. But those long chains of *ifs* are just a compound probability which means the whole chain is much less likely to be true.

If you want to say the US shouldn't support Israel as strongly as it does that is fine, but there are other much more plausible reasons for doing so than trotting out a version of the Jewish Conspiracy Theory to do it with a bogus argument from one of the most barbaric acts of history.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

There are no *ifs* about the troubles in the Middle East. They did not spring out of a vacuum.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

"If Holocaust numbers were purposely exaggerated to garner support for the state of Israel that would not have been there otherwise, and all the injustices that came from it which we are experiencing today, and possibly nuclear war tommorrow, not knowing the truth back in the day will be very costly in terms of human life."

History would not have been any different had 4,000,000 died rather than 6,000,000. The holocaust happened and helped fuel the establishment of the state of Israel. That there was such a holocaust has nothing whatsoever to do with the "injustices that came from it." Those injustices were the choices made by the Zionist leadership. They could have established, for example, a binational state had they so desired. The future of Isreali/Palestinaina relations was in the cards long before the holocaust.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are no *ifs* about the troubles in the Middle East. They did not spring out of a vacuum.

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't spring from a Jewish conspiracy regarding purposely exaggerating holocaust numbers either. But they do spring from the refusal of most Islamic states since Israel's refounding in 1948 to accept its existance.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

"The future of Isreali/Palestinaina relations was in the cards long before the holocaust."

That is true, but without mass exodus, the Jew's would not have had the numbers or international support of money and arms to fulfill the Zionist agenda. Remember, the claims immediately after the war were 9 million murdered Jews. This has definite emotional sway for international Jews and the politicians they supported.

If the concentration/death camps were called detention camps or deportation camps where murder took place but was not official policy, it changes the political picture drastically. We must not underestimate the value of media propaganda in effecting politics.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

And when did the Vatican accept the existence of Israel?

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

[ QUOTE ]
And when did the Vatican accept the existence of Israel?

[/ QUOTE ]

"The establishment of full diplomatic relations between Israel and the Holy See (under the terms of a Fundamental Agreement signed in Jerusalem in December 1993) may be viewed as a step of major significance in a historic process of change in the Church's attitude to Judaism and the Jewish people, publicly initiated by the declaration known as Nostra Aetate, issued by the Second Vatican Council in 1965.

In their Fundamental Agreement, Israel and the Holy See noted the "unique nature of the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jewish people..." and committed themselves to "appropriate cooperation in combating all forms of antisemitism and all kinds of racism and religious intolerance, and in promoting mutual understanding among nations, tolerance among communities and respect for human life and dignity," and "the peaceful resolution of conflicts among states and nations, excluding violence and terror from international life." Other obligations concern the Status Quo regime affecting the Christian Holy Places, questions relating to freedom of religion, pilgrimage to the Holy Land and other matters."

link

Zipo as a li\'l red vanishing light
 

At last, you realized when to fold 'em. What a station!


[ QUOTE ]
Zipo :
You claim my earlier posts were full of platitudes. Offer up one - just one - and we'll compare it to the dictionary definition of 'platitude'.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Cyrus:
Here we go, I close my eyes and pick . . .

[ QUOTE ]
Zippo : There are several varieties of Holocaust deniers, who have in common a deep sense of hatred and bigotry toward Jews.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
Dictionary
plat·i·tude n. A trite or banal remark or statement, especially one expressed as if it were original or significant.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Zipo :
Keep dancing

[/ QUOTE ]

Cyrus : [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The truth, always the truth
 

[ QUOTE ]
"The establishment of full diplomatic relations between Israel and the Holy See ... in December 1993 ..."

[/ QUOTE ]A bit late, wouldn't you say ? That was the point Peter666 was making.

As to the other point he is making, yes, as I believe George Steiner put it, Hitler begat Israel.

Not that the Holocaust was purposefully used by the Jews to start the chain of events leading up to Israel's creation. But, yes, they did take advantage of the huge (and quite justified) wave of sympathy that engulfed civilised humanity after the plight of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis became fully known to the world.

- Yes, there were probably exaggerations (and possibly huge exaggerations, given a persecuted people's propensity to exaggerate their danger and misery).

- Yes, the number "Six million dead" is possibly an exaggeration.

- Yes, the state of Israel, from 1948 onwards, could have followed a radically different path than that chosen by the extreme nationalist ruling faction of Reformed Zionists that led the new state towards a status of permanent confrontation againsth both the indigenous people and the neighbors.

- Yes, the Israeli State has used the Holocaust for devious and sometimes odious purposes. And so have many, many Jews, as well. (See The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering by Norman G. Finkelstein.)

Yes to all the above, yes, and yes again. SO WHAT ? The holocaust of the Jews and other unfortunates at the hands of Nazism remains a momentous, colossal crime in human history, possibly quite unique in its diabolic combination of supremacists ideology, systematic murder and use of technology. *


Once more, it doesn't matter what the exact purpose of Gas Machine Nr 10 in Buchenwald was. It doesn't matter if the typhus epidemic was caused by the Nazis (it wasn't, as far as we know) or if it happened because of the prevailing conditions in the camps. It doesn't matter if the little girl was separated from her mother because the Nazis needed to work the mother to death or use the child in a "medical experiment". It was a holocaust. It was mass murder to the degree of a crime against humanity.

Every Nazi fugitive that remains alive should be captured, tried and punished under the World War II's laws and agreements.

--Cyrus

* : The holocaust is also notable for the extent of the civilian population's participation in Germany as well as in other countries, a subject which still remains a taboo, and NOT discussed amongst polite company... The Poles, the French, the Austrians, the Dutch, the Ukrainians, the Latvians --ah, the Latvians!-- and many other nations have still not atoned nor apologized for their progeny's crimes against humanity during WWII.

Re: The truth, always the truth
 

Not that the Holocaust was purposefully used by the Jews to start the chain of events leading up to Israel's creation. But, yes, they did take advantage of the huge (and quite justified) wave of sympathy that engulfed civilised humanity after the plight of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis became fully known to the world.

Hate to break it to you, but the State of Israel would have been created regardless. The movement was strong long before the Holocaust was even a gleam in the eye of a prisoner in an Austrian jailhouse. The Holocaust was merely the last straw.

Yes, the state of Israel, from 1948 onwards, could have followed a radically different path than that chosen by the extreme nationalist ruling faction of Reformed Zionists that led the new state towards a status of permanent confrontation againsth both the indigenous people and the neighbors.

You still haven't figured out that the Reformed Zionist movement is a direct consequence of the Holocaust? That European anti-semitism built this Iron Wall, as you're so fond of putting it?

Re: Zipo as a li\'l red vanishing light
 

>>At last, you realized when to fold 'em<<

Naw. You were exposed, and you're going to keep dancing at the end of the rope you were given.

You claimed you "never said" my abhorrence of the holocaust was related to my support for Israel. I demonstrated a post written by you in this thread which proved you to be a liar, or simply confused.

I clarified your confusion - yet you continue to deny and obfuscate. Persistent troll-like behavior. Also hilarious.

Secondly, you finally offered an example of what you characterized as a "platitude". The example you provided clearly demonstrates that you have no idea of what a platitude is.

You really should learn what those big words mean before you start throwing them around. Until then, if you don't want to continue making a fool of yourself, use monosyllables.

Zipo in sundicated re-run
 

[ QUOTE ]
You claimed you "never said" my abhorrence of the holocaust was related to my support for Israel. I demonstrated a post written by you in this thread which proved you to be a liar, or simply confused.

[/ QUOTE ] The post written by me in THIS thread clearly accused you of hurling the "anti-semite" epithet against anyone who dares say something "bad" about Israel. That was it. I did NOT claim that your abohorrence of the holocaust stems from your support for Israel. That would have been absurd, as absurd as your wild accusations, because, of course, a person can both abhor the Holocaust AND not support Israel (if by "Israel" one refers to Israeli official policies, paricularly regarding the Palestinians).

I am an example of that, you fool. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
The example you provided clearly demonstrates that you have no idea of what a platitude is.

[/ QUOTE ] I picked out at random a word from your platitude-fest of a post, and showed it to be a banal remark which you ponderously wrote as if it were original or significant. Which fits the very definition of a platitude, if you were to look it up sometime.

Here's you gem again, without commercial breaks : There are several varieties of Holocaust deniers, who have in common a deep sense of hatred and bigotry toward Jews.

Solid work, there. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Use monosyllables.

[/ QUOTE ] OK - You - keep - post'n ... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Zipo in sundicated re-run
 

>> The post written by me in THIS thread clearly accused you of hurling the "anti-semite" epithet against anyone who dares say something "bad" about Israel. <<

Of course, I proved conclusively that this assertion of yours is absolutely false. If you wish to refute this, document a post of mine in this thread where I brought up 'israel. Put up or shut up.

>> I picked out at random a word from your platitude-fest of a post, and showed it to be a banal remark<<

The comment you referenced was not a platitude. Period. If you believe that it is, then you are only parading your ignorance. If you have another example of a platitude, offer it. Put up or shut up.

Re: The truth, always the truth
 

[ QUOTE ]
The State of Israel would have been created regardless. The movement was strong long before the Holocaust was even a gleam in the eye of a prisoner in an Austrian jailhouse.

[/ QUOTE ] Are you seriously suggesting that "the movement" was strong enough to make a grab for Palestine at the time that Adolph Hitler was in jail?? (BTW, Hitler was jailed in Bavaria and not Austria.)

That would be around 1924. You folks had only the Balfour Declaration to go on. Think that alone would have carried the strategic interests of the superpowers of the day ?

This is all speculative but ...I don't think so!

[ QUOTE ]
You still haven't figured out that the Reformed Zionist movement is a direct consequence of the Holocaust?

[/ QUOTE ] The term "Holocaust" is usually used in reference to the mass murder of Jews in World War II. I have the dates for World War II as September 1939 - middle of 1945. And I have the birth day of Reform Zionism as 1935 at the latest, which was the year that the World Zionist Organization failed to accept Jabotinsky's program, and he seceded to form the New Zionist Organization. But Jabotinsky was promoting his ideas long before that. Hell, he died in 1940! There was no known Holocaust at the time, and certainly no "direct consequence of the Holocaust".

You are not too careful with your dates, are you ?

(And I don't mean the shiksas.)

[ QUOTE ]
European anti-semitism built this Iron Wall.

[/ QUOTE ] Nah. You built it yourselves.

Bavarian doughnut
 

The term "Holocaust" is usually used in reference to the mass murder of Jews in World War II. I have the dates for World War II as September 1939 - middle of 1945. And I have the birth day of Reform Zionism as 1935 at the latest, which was the year that the World Zionist Organization failed to accept Jabotinsky's program, and he seceded to form the New Zionist Organization. But Jabotinsky was promoting his ideas long before that. Hell, he died in 1940! There was no known Holocaust at the time, and certainly no "direct consequence of the Holocaust".

0 points for this answer.

German-legislated persecution of Jews, if not mass murder, began long long before 1939, my friend, but i won't dwell on that. These guys will, though. The general consensus holds that the Holocaust began with the enactment of the Nuremberg laws, in 1935.

Why do you insist on taking such banally obvious underlying circumstances and ignoring them!

Of course, Jabotinsky was a Russian, so it's more likely his ideas came from somewhere else (hint: starts with "P" ends with "ogroms")

BUT!

As you are keenly aware, the movement itself was outcast within mainstream Zionism! No support! No nothing, outside of a few violent splinter groups in Palestine and some political-types in Europe. Given ultra-nationalist Europe and "Arabia" at the time, a Jewish nationalist movement was only to be expected!

Of course, the movement remained outcast for a while and on the periphery of Zionist politics. It didn't emerge as a real opposition candidate to ben Gurions Labour Zionism or even enjoy any mainstream public support, until sometime around the end of the H...

well, I'll let you finish that one.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody here think the Israelis will launch an air strike on the Iranian nuclear facilities the way they did on Iraq's in the early 80's? And would that start a major war?

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be totally sweeet. If the Israelis did the heavy lifting for us, we could sit back and just refuse to sign the Security Council condemnation.

Dates, dates
 

[ QUOTE ]
German-legislated persecution of Jews, if not mass murder, began long long before 1939.

[/ QUOTE ] Legislated persecution, yes. Mass murder, no.

I had the opportunity to say this to someone else here, over an exchange of PMs : Even if "the cause is just", it does not pay (certainly not in our day and age) to lie or exaggerate about it, under no circumstances. What usually happens is that the lie and the exaggeration are unmasked and the oppositions grabs onto those and tries to bring down the whole cause. E.g. The Revisionists "prove" that "less than six million jews died" (e.g. 5.9 mln), ergo No Holocaust!

Back to the issue : The Nazis started passing anti-Jewish legislation and anti-many other things legislation as soon as Hitler became Chancellor. (Which does not register as "long long before" in my book but I won't quibble.) They did not start the mass murder until well into World War II, when they set up the camps inside Poland and the death machine cranked up also in Germany.

[ QUOTE ]
The general consensus holds that the Holocaust began with the enactment of the Nuremberg laws, in 1935.

[/ QUOTE ] Nope, that is certainly not "the general consensus". The racial laws spawned the Holocaust but did not enact it. Historians trace the start of the crime even earlier, when Hitler outlined his sentiments (and hinted broadly at his intentions) in My Struggle.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, Jabotinsky was a Russian, so it's more likely his ideas came from somewhere else (hint: starts with "P" ends with "ogroms")

[/ QUOTE ] 0 points for this answer.

At the time of Jabotinsky, the Soviet Union was experiencing its more tolerant period, relatively speaking, as far as Jews were concerned. The persecutions at the top of the power echelon were not affecting the Jewish masses in the USSR. Anti-Jewish pogroms were a czarist specialty.

Jabotinsky did not need to have suffered any "real world traumas" to formulate his ideas -- an ideologue does not need any such, not necessarily. These are facile, American B-movie kind of "explanations" for men's actions or ideas. Jabotinsky found "cause" in Jewish history to formulate ideas such as his -- and, as to whether or not they were "correct", that is another subject.

[ QUOTE ]
Given ultra-nationalist Europe and "Arabia" at the time, a Jewish nationalist movement was only to be expected!

[/ QUOTE ] True, true.

[ QUOTE ]
[Reform Zionism] didn't ... enjoy any mainstream public support, until sometime around the end of the H[olocaust].

[/ QUOTE ]..which is around 1945. Which means Reform Zionism (a virulent, ultra-nationalist, intolerant and irredentist movement like Britain's BNP, France's National Front, etc) and its equally odious offshoots DID enjoy mainstream public support ever since Israel came to be!

We agree... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Zipo with breeches open
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[You are] hurling the "anti-semite" epithet against anyone who dares say something "bad" about Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]I proved conclusively that this assertion of yours is absolutely false.

[/ QUOTE ]For the moment, I will merely point out that you are claiming to have proved a negative.


[ QUOTE ]
Document a post of mine in this thread where I brought up 'Israel'.

[/ QUOTE ] I have no idea what you're talking about. I did not "accuse" you of "bringing up Israel in this thread". For the record, I have not seen you bring up anything related to "Israel" in this thread. The fact that you abhor the Holocaust (as I do too), does not mean that you are a supporter of Israel (which I am not).

You come off as seriously confused.

[ QUOTE ]
The comment you referenced was not a platitude ... If you have another example of a platitude, offer it.

[/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Thanks, that's all that's needed.

[ QUOTE ]
Put up or shut up. ... Put up or shut up.

[/ QUOTE ] I realize you'd dearly want me to shut up (or go away, preferably [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]) but this is the trouble you get into when you get fuzzy with truth and logic.

Zip up and post away.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The guy did his own research and backed up his claims with his own findings. I'd say anyone who prefers blindly believing the media vs. thinking for himself can't be a very good poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, I have a regular revisionist/holocaust believer game every thursday. Some of the analytical revisionists are solid, only they tend to not to believe the strenght I represent. You should see the game on the anniversary of Kristallnacht, regular magoo fest.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is easily the best post in this thread.

Re: Zipo with breeches open
 

Well, it was fun for awhile making you chase your tail, but now your antics are just boring.

So, keep posting, We'll see if anyone keeps reading.

Re: M for Murder
 

[ QUOTE ]
This concept of "war crimes" is a farce and just illustrates the pathological self-righteousness of America and other western powers who endorse it.

War is a state of affairs in which there are no rules -- anything goes, kill or be killed, use everthing you've got to destroy the enemy.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have no idea what you are talking about at all, do you?

Zipo fades out
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your antics are just boring.

[/ QUOTE ]Was it the part where you I pointed out you're claiming to have proved a negative that turned you off? Or was it the part where you inadvertedly admitted your fondness for platitudes? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
We'll see if anyone keeps reading.

[/ QUOTE ]Another first in the annals of internet. Self-weighted threads! [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]