Re: JJ
 

Absolutely agreed. You need to be aggressive. If there is more than draws you will find out immediately.

Re: JJ
 

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Do you like folding the flop then? I'm starting to wonder if doing a ram and jam on a draw heavy board is actually a leak of mine.

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"Ramming and jamming" a flop like this against this many people is flat-out foolish. If you are instead raising looking to knock people out (assuming position/pot size make this possible), then yes. But just going off here sucks, this is a wait for the turn at best I think, and possibly a fold.

Re: JJ
 

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I think only the A high club draw is raising here, probably KQ clubs.

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Well, what about an OESD? Or an OESD + a pair? Or two overcards to a gutshot? Or a plethora of possible made straights/two pair/set hands that already have us clobbered? Obviously it is very player-dependent as to whether someone is going to raise these hands or not, but they are all perfectly plausible raises behind us. And the pot just gets bigger and bigger, and we're in a bad place.

Re: JJ
 

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Do you like folding the flop then?

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I won't fault anyone who wants to fold the flop. I think it's close but seeing the turn and raising if it's safe is okay.

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I'm starting to wonder if doing a ram and jam on a draw heavy board is actually a leak of mine.

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In a huge multiway pot on a draw heavy board I would not ever ram and jam in a spot like this where my equity on each bet is fairly low.

Re: JJ
 

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Absolutely agreed. You need to be aggressive. If there is more than draws you will find out immediately.

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Why? How does this help? Why would you put bets in when you don't have equity advantage or if you do it's small and will change dramatically on the turn?

Re: JJ
 

yeah I would think if you get in a raising war on the flop you are losing money each time you hit raise. you would either be against a pair and straight draw, flush draw, made 2 pair, set, or straight, not to mention the other hands in there gambooling away which are all taking money from you - you have the weak made hand here, so you have to dodge the whole field, while if the best draw hits he wins.

I think you do need to see one more card though, this pot is ginormous and playeres might call behind you with very little, making your odds better. of course they might raise which sucks as well. nevertheless, I can't fold just yet

Re: JJ
 

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Absolutely agreed. You need to be aggressive. If there is more than draws you will find out immediately.

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Why? How does this help? Why would you put bets in when you don't have equity advantage or if you do it's small and will change dramatically on the turn?

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also, say you do get three bet, why does this rule out draws?

Re: JJ
 

Ugh I'm not folding yet, but I would like to see a turn cheap. If it is something ugly I can get out of dodge and hopefully a raise can be found if a blank hits. The fact that we have a bet and 2 calls to us just isn't enough to warrent a fold here IMO. People are calling with all types of garbage and I would hate to give this up with both decent equity and outs to a better hand. A big part of calling here is the fact that we can spike a jack piece while getting good odds (not to mention that our hand will be good a fair amount of the time).

Re: JJ
 

Raising here seems like throwing money away for anyone saying to raise. It's a straight two-toned board with everyone and their brother still holding hole cards.

I'd peel but folding probably isn't horrible.

I did a quick pokerstove and you've got about 15% equity. Considering a bet and two calls already probably a hair less even. I'd say a majority of the time someone will raise behind you. That's really what makes it close. But I'd peel and make a turn decision...and I don't think I have to pay 3 bets to see the turn (or not see the turn) that often. Sometimes I see if for one.

But really, raising here sucks.

Re: JJ
 

As others have said, raising here would be pretty terrible. Try counting how many turn cards you wouldn't like to see... or even put some ranges into pokerstove, our equity sucks.

I think the pot is too big to fold, but I doubt calling is a ton better than folding.