Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

You might argue that in such a tight game, open-raising UTG with T9s becomes a blind steal, in which case the added equity from people letting you have the blinds makes this a profitable play after all. In that case, you could probably do it even with QTo--87s is better, though, as Barron pointed out, because of its improved performance against the high wired pair.

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

Are we still talking about this? I thought this was pretty straight forward answer?

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]
because q-10 cannot be played with confidence. the flop comes 2-7-Q. you bet. another calls. now what the hell do you do with your 10 kicker?

[/ QUOTE ]

You unleash an unholy barrage of bets and raises until the peasant cowers into submission.

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

We fold QT/o UTG for the same reason we [usually] fold it from middle or even late position; it's a bad hand.

Re. the claim that it wins more than it's share against 9 random hands . . .

LOL - If you find 9 opponents playing RANDOM (i.e ALL) hands you should probably NOT fold QT/o UTG - although you won't win much playing it.

Even vs. 9 random hands you'll have a hard time making good choices on the flop/turn/river having to act first on each round.

I'm assuming your source does not account for future bets and provides only raw percentages (i.e. "hot-cold" runs).

You'd be shocked at some of the hands that win > 10% of the time against 9 random hands - including J/2s and T/5s.

K/7s, a hand I hope you'd never play UTG, wins a little more often than 3/3 (a hand you probably should be playing UTG in loose games).

Hot-cold %s are not of much use unless you or your opponent(s) are allin preflop and are of limited use even in these instances since you'll find few if any opponents playing random cards.

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

Actually, hot-cold numbers can help us compare hands to each other, and they can also tell us whether a hand benefits or is hurt by multi-way action. You're right that we should apply some caution and common sense, but they are still useful.

In limit, I have found QTo to be OK (not great) in LP. Having position helps out a lot of mediocre hands, and this is no exception.

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

Valid points, however it's worth noting that T-9/s can flop more than 3 different open-ended straight draws.

You're leaving out K-J-7 and Q-8-6.

The addition of two possible straights (or straight draws) does not in and of itself add significant strength to this hand; J-9/s flops fewer open-ended straight draws but is obviously playable [virtually] anywhere T-9/s is; I mention it only for those who often overlook these flops.

Double-gutshot draws are really great for business, if YOU have them; they can be as expensive as hell if your opponents hav'em though a little less so if you learn to spot the fact that one could be out.

*

"The prices of the prizes are rounded off to the nearest dollar, and gift certificates do not include sales tax. Now let's meet tonight's contestants".

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

Ah, yet another fellow who has clearly not been to A.C. on a Friday night during the summer.

[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

[/ QUOTE ]

That misses the point. You aren't sure the players with trash like 52o will limp behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]


(Though you'd obviously love it if they did).

*

You are always up against 9 random hands PRE-FLOP at a 10-handed table; these simulations assume that all 9 play through to the river and do not account for post-flop bets.

- Sometimes I can't tell if they're being serious or glib.

Then there are those such as myself who can ably manage to do both simultaneously.

*

"It is SO tough to be modest when you're as good as I am". [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

Of even more importance than having 5+ to the flop is having one or two "Curious Georges" who will march dutifully to the river.

The utter irony here is that A-A, when in the hands of a weak player, often becomes one of the "Curious Georges"; it can easily turn into a payoff-hand whereas your T-9/s almost never will.

No, I'm not saying A-A is the second best of these two hands, only that A-A often winds up as the second best hand overall in large, multi-way pots - and second best with A-A is apt to cost dearly. This fate almost never awaits T-9/s and the like. If you (and 5+ opponents) pay 2 or more bets pre-flop to see the flop you are very often committed to go to the end if you flop any sort of hand or draw, however you are [usually] correct in calling all raises (or even being the raisor). A-A often finds itself wishing the betting would end even when it knows it's [currently] ahead as these hands are very similar to Omaha pots - you know you're ahead but cannot think of more than 2 or 3 cards that will leave you there.

"Dammit deputy, send those girls home - and learn to listen more carefully; I said I need to get me a 'POSSE' - 'POSSE', dammit. What did you THINK I said" ?