Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

There are many more combos I 3 bet without an ace than with preflop from an UTG and me also being in early position.

(From UTG standpoint) I think check/raising this flop with AJ isn't a good play if the button calls the flop bet, as he likely has a strong hand. I'd rather check/call and bet the turn if you want to check and button calls. if button drops, I could then buy into a check/raise and fold to a raise on the turn from RED.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

I'm surprised that neither of you two wise chaps mentioned that the primary goal in this hand is to extricate the button and hero should proceed as such. Who cares about UTG -- hero is WAWB of UTG, imo.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

sometimes pop flop, sometimes don't. i don't think it matters all that much either way.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

Actually, in a 3 way pot, my goal if I were UTG and had AK would not be to extricate the button. I want him in for the ride preferrably to the river. Of course, I want him out if he has more than 8 outs but that's just a pipedream because he will never drop a draw that big. The usual scenario where the button gets extricated by a bet and raise is if he has a 2,3, 4, or 5 outer. But in fact, I want him in with those hands on a pot of this size. So, I let Red bet, button calls or raises and I then either 3 bet/raise or raise/coldcall. Both oppoents collectively are now putting in a total of at least 4 bets on the flop when I have much the best of it facing say 7 bad cards on turn and river i.e. Red has 2 outs twice and button has 5 outs twice.

IMO, limiting the field is a concept that is important but is given too much emphasis on these boards.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

Thanks for the response skp.

I probably shouldn't have posted under your post. I was replying from the perspective of OP not if I were UTG. I would want it Hu with UTG. Difficult to say if that's best achieved with a flop raise or turn raise - depends on Button's hand and tendencies. But since I don't know either, I'm usually raising the flop to get it hu with a likely badly dominated UTG hand.

If you just call the flop you're giving button 12.5:1. That's exactly the odds he needs I believe to chase any pair. If he has a pair that could make a runner runner straight or flush, and
1. he would call two on the turn once picking up that straight/flush draw or
2. utg doesn't bet the turn and he gets to see the river for 1 bet
- you're losing money letting him in on the flop (if my math is right).

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

I hate it when both PokerBob and ActionBob reply to a thread. I get so confused. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
I probably shouldn't have posted under your post. I was replying from the perspective of OP not if I were UTG. I would want it Hu with UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the fault is mine. I thought you were talking from UTG's perspective but a reread of your first post clearly indicates that you were talking from Red's perspective. My bad.

Re: Live 30/60 against 2+2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, in a 3 way pot, my goal if I were UTG and had AK would not be to extricate the button. I want him in for the ride preferrably to the river. Of course, I want him out if he has more than 8 outs but that's just a pipedream because he will never drop a draw that big. The usual scenario where the button gets extricated by a bet and raise is if he has a 2,3, 4, or 5 outer. But in fact, I want him in with those hands on a pot of this size. So, I let Red bet, button calls or raises and I then either 3 bet/raise or raise/coldcall. Both oppoents collectively are now putting in a total of at least 4 bets on the flop when I have much the best of it facing say 7 bad cards on turn and river i.e. Red has 2 outs twice and button has 5 outs twice.

IMO, limiting the field is a concept that is important but is given too much emphasis on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you said if UTG has AK or AA. But I don't agree if he has AJ or AQ as I don't want to get 3 bet on flop or raised on turn.