Re: Play this hand against me
 

Chiming in late here but a couple of things:

1) In a weird way, I think that if the 3-bet is as bad as everyone says, then that makes the 4-bet on the turn pretty bad as well.

2) I also think this is a fairly straightforward raise on the flop, as the limper very likely will have a 3-5 out hand on this board, and the pot size is exactly such that he'd be correct to call for one bet but not for two.

...As for the river play for J282's opponent, the right play is almost cerainly to call the turn bet and to fold the river without improvement, hoping also once in a blue moon to get a free showdown.

Re: Play this hand against me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Chiming in late here but a couple of things:

1) In a weird way, I think that if the 3-bet is as bad as everyone says, then that makes the 4-bet on the turn pretty bad as well.

2) I also think this is a fairly straightforward raise on the flop, as the limper very likely will have a 3-5 out hand on this board, and the pot size is exactly such that he'd be correct to call for one bet but not for two.

...As for the river play for J282's opponent, the right play is almost cerainly to call the turn bet and to fold the river without improvement, hoping also once in a blue moon to get a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't your thoughts on this hand depend on what I have? FWIW, limper in this hand would call two cold on the flop with any draw, 3 outs included. Does that change your opinion?
-James

Re: Play this hand against me
 

Ahhh jesus-
i was all ready to start in on a reply, and then you remind me there is a third player in the hand. Back to sqaure one.

Re: Play this hand against me
 

I basically call down here 100% of the time, and it has to be a leak. I think 3 betting the turn is awful.

Re: Play this hand against me
 

Yeah Id call the turn raise, check/call the river.

Re: Play this hand against me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chiming in late here but a couple of things:

1) In a weird way, I think that if the 3-bet is as bad as everyone says, then that makes the 4-bet on the turn pretty bad as well.

2) I also think this is a fairly straightforward raise on the flop, as the limper very likely will have a 3-5 out hand on this board, and the pot size is exactly such that he'd be correct to call for one bet but not for two.

...As for the river play for J282's opponent, the right play is almost cerainly to call the turn bet and to fold the river without improvement, hoping also once in a blue moon to get a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't your thoughts on this hand depend on what I have? FWIW, limper in this hand would call two cold on the flop with any draw, 3 outs included. Does that change your opinion?
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Buh, I got the I/you confused and thought that *you* (James) had QQ. So you can ignore pretty much everything that I said.

That said, I still don't mind raising the flop here, *especially* if the limper is liable to call two cold and there's a high probability of a 3-bet.

Re: Play this hand against me
 

The reason why I pay off with those smallish pairs on unscary boards is that I don't want people to notice I fold on the river and start taking shots at me.

Re: Play this hand against me
 

[ QUOTE ]
The reason why I pay off with those smallish pairs on unscary boards is that I don't want people to notice I fold on the river and start taking shots at me.

[/ QUOTE ]

But surely you don't have to call the bet everytime.

I steal pots with a river bet with some frequency and I certainly make note of players who call me. Of course, against a lot of players who won't bet the nuts on the river, just seeing you value bet and win with marginal holdings makes this play still more profitable. I don't make the play twice in a row if the first time I get called.

Re: Play this hand against me
 

[ QUOTE ]
A very loose player limps UTG+1. You raise black Queens behind him and I three-bet. The rest of the table is pretty tight, they all fold. Limper cold calls and you cap.

Flop comes 9 7 5 Sucky limper checks, you bet, I call, limper calls.

Turn is a T . Limper checks, you bet, and now I raise. Limper folds. Your play? Opponent in this hand thought that 3 betting was the right play. Now I fourbet, what's the play now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Below was one of your responses to Andy.

[ QUOTE ]
Your average 2+2er isn't betting the river with 88 or JJ hoping to get a better hand to fold because they know in these situations a "good player" will almost always call down with a better hand, but fold a worse one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with not betting the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Similarly, most average twoplustwoers wouldn't raise the turn with these hands in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree about the turn. I think many 2+2'ers, me included, could raise the turn there with 88 or JJ on a 9 7 5 T board. The pf capper is a player like you and could play AK the same way. If he 3 bets, I call with extra str outs and fold river UI.

As far as getting 4 bet with QQ, I think folding is better than calling and folding UI.