Re: QT...what a biotch
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm...let's see...fold pre-flop. Raise the flop, your hand is not strong enough to wait for the turn and you might get a free card if the turn is bad (say, like a K for example.) Turn raise is horrible, as you fold out the only hands you're ahead of (JJ, TT), while losing extra to K's or better Q's (without an exceptional read I don't expect anybody to fold.) Betting the river would be horrible.

FOLD PREFLOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i raise the flop i am going to get 3 bet a lot of the time by a lot of hands IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're so worried about the strength of your hand when you have top pair on the flop, what could possibly inspire you to raise the turn?? The only hands you fold out are 99-JJ no club (2 outs), and possibly AQs. Everything else he can have beats you, and none of these hands fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm saying is if he has just overcards he's more likely to fold the turn to a raise than the flop (was hoping it wasn't going to be an overcard). Since it was, and he bet the flop, I figured my line of calling the flop and raising the turn would indicate the K or the flush. This guy folds a lot post flop, i mentioned that in my original post, and I'm a fairly straight forward player at 3/6 since im new to it so he should perceive my raise as a K or flush- and he's capable of laying down a Q on this board. I can't fold (or can i?) so i'd have to call the river anyway, most likely, and i have him as TAGish (also mentioned above) so I'm expecting a river bet. I can fold to a turn 3bet easily.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

prediction before I've finished reading the post, or read any of the thread: there will be a hoard of people bitching about the preflop raise without mentioning anything about postflop play

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

fwiw he's getting 5.5-1 immediate, not effective

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

I'm calling the turn, because the only hands that are folding are the ones that are drawing slim, and they will probably paying off a river bet, and you might get 3-bet while holding outs. or possibly a free showdown by a better hand on a scary river card

also, for me, folding QT utg is the exception rather than the rule but if the table's especially loose and/or aggressive, I'm folding it

and I call the flop planning to call down

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think raising the flop is better but waiting till the turn isn't horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think this?? IMO, waiting for the turn is a lot better.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't like raising the turn at all, even if it's a blank. if you get 3-bet you fold outs, you might get a hand like AJ to fold right there, which you don't want since he'll otherwise check-call the turn, pretty often you put in 3 bets with the worst hand which negates much of the benefit of getting 3 bets from hands like JJ, and you open yourself up to a bluff. if you're going to call a 3-bet then I think it's even worse

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

My post was based on the fact that the OP raised and is now facing a 3bet. I now realize that he meant folding pf without the raise. FWIW I raise utg with QTo.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

Why is there this paranoia among good players of being 3-bet on the turn? If we peel and fold the river unimproved we've spent 3.5BB postflop, the same as getting 3-bet on the flop and calling down. If the player is such that we can't safely fold before showdown facing a turn 3-bet, then I agree that raising the flop is probably right, but these players are uncommon. Otherwise, it seems that raising the flop is sacrificing value to avoid this "tough" decision.

This is a good point that is applicable to some games:

[ QUOTE ]
if you get 3-bet you fold outs, you might get a hand like AJ to fold right there, which you don't want since he'll otherwise check-call the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

that should read "check-call the river" at the end

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

I think, especially against a TAG who folds a lot postflop, the turn raise hurts you. No one believes a flop raise, but if you raise the turn he likely folds the smaller pps and other worse hands, or of course 3-bets or calls with better ones.

If hero did win the hand, I'd imagine it's because the guy called the turn raise with a club

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

do you mean raising the flop?