Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
But now that you know who it is, it's payback time. I would stalk him and beat him with a small sledge hammer. Not to kill him, just to break the bones in his body, and then get your X BOX back.

[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't sound very Christian... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gunny,
Congratulations, you are completely [censored] stupid! You cannot read! You are dense and ignorant! YAY!

You also have the maturity of a 4 year-old (that's mine, don't take it! wahhhhh! i'll kill you or call my mommy!).

My suggestion (If I were you, I'd listen up. I am above average intelligence. You, on the other hand, are not. I'm just trying to help you out.) is to leave the board now. Don't waste your time, you will inevitably be banned and are not bright enough to be a winning p*ker player anyhow.

Cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

I see you and Sephus both graduated from the same school of debate. Congratulations to you both. I'm sure you have a fine career in politics with the rest of the thieves, or those that think thievery is a gray area.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But now that you know who it is, it's payback time. I would stalk him and beat him with a small sledge hammer. Not to kill him, just to break the bones in his body, and then get your X BOX back.

[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't sound very Christian... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Eye for an eye and all that... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

In the scenario described, up close like that, a knife is really gonna ruin your day.

With the gun culture in most of the Western world, people seriously underestimate edged weapons and the damage that they can do.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

actually my post pointed you in the right direction, but my experience is gradually teaching me the futility of using written words to argue with someone who has poor reading comprehension.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

I am just giving him a little taste of Hell on Earth so he will repent and not go there in the after life.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, it's not the stuff itself that matters, it's my time and energy that went into acquiring it. I really don't need a lot of "stuff" to get by. Look at it this way, by taking what I earned by my labor against my will, he is, in a sense making me a slave. There's no piece of paper saying I'm his, but if I have no rights to what I work for then that's what I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this very strongly. Unless you've been truly poor for any extended period of time, it might be impossible to fathom how incredibly hard it is to make any headway financially when you're on the bottom, and how even the smallest luxuries become windfalls that are proof of an enormous amount of time and effort in your life that it took you to get them. When a poor man finally is able to buy a t.v., it's an enormously big deal that means he has had to make some pretty disheartening and dehumanizing sacrifices, and when it's stolen, what is stolen is not just an object like a person with more money can go out and get tomorrow, but an actual meaningful chunk of his life that he'll never get back. The hurt is real. "It's only money" when money is plentiful. When everything comes hard, you really screw someone bad when you steal from him, and even deny his humanity.

I think that this is one of those issues that is basically impossible to understand if you haven't been poor. And I do mean that. It's just beyond comprehension if you haven't lived it, and for real, not the fake broke that some kids think they knew in college, where help was always a phone call away if they just steeled up their nerve and swallowed their pride enough to ask.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

I think first I'd probably yell and use alot of swear words and gun gestures in telling him to get out of my apartment. If he hesitates in any way, his knees and chest are fair game.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While not more than 5 or 10 mins later my bedroom light turns on and I turn over and see someone standing in front of my bathroom door wearing a bandana over his face. Not realizing what the hell is going on I say "What the [censored] are you doing?" It's at that point I notice that he has a large knife in his hands. He quickly walks up to me, puts the knife in my face and motions for me to turn over.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point you don't know if this is armed robbery or he's going to SIIYP. I'd shoot him if possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read so true crime stories and books that have described killers saying something like this when they attack you, so they don't have to see your face. A hell of a lot more people can stab you or shoot you than look in your face while doing it, including people who've killed many, many times before. If someone told me to turn over on my back, I'd be extremely scared that the next thing I would feel was a knife in my heart. Hell, to me it would be the equivalent of accepting that you're going to die and just deciding to make it as painless as possible for the both of you by not resisting your murder, kind of like putting on a blindfold in front of a firing squad.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the scenario described, up close like that, a knife is really gonna ruin your day.

With the gun culture in most of the Western world, people seriously underestimate edged weapons and the damage that they can do.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is pretty true. At the range described in the OP, IF the robber was willing to kill the OP if he resisted (debateable considering he knew the OP), even a gun in the room might as well be in the store it was bought from. I believe the police can shoot someone with a knife that is within 20 feet of them because they constitute a deadly threat.

So the only other option is to shoot him as he leaves which, I think is wrong because he is no longer a threat.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
So the only other option is to shoot him as he leaves which, I think is wrong because he is no longer a threat.

[/ QUOTE ]

and i agree shooting in this case is wrong.

in fact there was a recent case where a convenience store owner was found guilty of charges. he was being robbed and the guy was fleeing the store and the owner shot him as he was fleeing. the court determined the owner was no longer in harm's way.

i tried to google this case but cant find it. i just read about it this week though.

bwana

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

Would you kill a man who's robbing you?

Certainly not. But I'd cripple a guy who was attacking me with a knife.

~D

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

There have probably been any number of cases like that all over the country.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do you guys handle a knife pulled on ya? Here's all mine:

1) A guy pulls it out - it's a nasty-looking stilleto, he's holding it like he knows how to use it - but he's mistaken me for a bouncer(!) in a club - one of whom has taken his girl (ie she left him for this bouncer).

I talked him around, that I wasn't a bouncer, we shake hands, end of drama.

2) A little turd and his gang called me 'lurch' or 'jaws' or something talking about my size while I was running, so I stopped and approached him. He pulled out a knife, but he looked like he was gonna faint. I remembered my 'warriors' (the movie), and told him to put it away or I'd stick it up his ass. He did, and said sorry.

3) A guy in the street (nutter I think) just pulled it out and started to call me every name under the sun. I backed away, and just walked around him, giving him a big space. He just ranted on, and stayed there. Ahh, just some nut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good reads, all 3 well played.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

In the circumstances described, if I have easy access to a gun (if it's under my pillow, for instance), I'm shooting the guy in the chest, repeatedly. It's all about self-preservation, and has nothing to do with me wanting to "protect" my stuff.

For all I know, the guy is mentally unstable and has every intention of killing me, regarless of whether I resist or not. I'm not going to wait to find out whether or not he's going to let me live. As soon as he enters my bedroom I'm assuming the worst and am protecting myself.

Now, if I'm in my house and I see someone outside breaking into my car, I'm not going out there and shooting him. I'm calling the cops. If I'm in my home and startle a robber and he runs for the door, I'm not shooting him in the back. I'm letting him escape. I'm only killing an intruder if I feel that my life is in danger, not to protect my belongings. I have insurance to recover my belongings.

And for those of you who think that it's a good idea to shoot an intruder in the leg, or the arm, this is not a practical solution. When you shoot someone (especially with a small caliber gun), it doesn't knock them down like in the movies. It usually takes a second or two for the person to realize he's been shot. If you pull out a gun, the robber is likely to charge at you to take it away from you, so if you need to be shooting to stop him dead in his tracks. If you shoot him in the shoulder, he'll keep coming at you with his knife, and *you'll* be the one to end up dead. You also stand a greater chance of missing if you aim anywhere other than centre of mass. And if you miss, you've escalated the situation to the point where the robber feels like he's fighting for his life, and will be looking to kill you.

You need to shoot to kill, or not at all. Things happen too quickly for you to try to get "cute" with a gun.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

For those of you who have been around OOT long enough you know my answer to this question.

Big Steve [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

Would I kill a person who's robbing me?
In a heartbeat.
If was in a good mood, I might even kill someone who was robbing you.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
For those of you who have been around OOT long enough you know my answer to this question.

Big Steve [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

in texas i think you may have been charged. there was a somewhat similiar case here in austin about 10 years ago and the woman was convicted (although i forget the exact offense).


edit to add: some of the circumstances are dissimilar but i think there may be enough that bigsteve would have problems.

bwana

My suggestion :
 

Rob the man who's killing you.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I'd be able to kill him. I'd like to think that I could, but I just don't know.

Anyway, what happened to the guy? Did he get arrested? Did you get your stuff back?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't get my stuff back. The guy got probation. Isn't that messed up? He had an arrested warrant elsewhere too.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
in texas i think you may have been charged. there was a somewhat similiar case here in austin about 10 years ago and the woman was convicted (although i forget the exact offense).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember Big Steve's case, but the requirements for using deadly force in Texas are about as favorable to the victim as any state. It is legal to use deadly force to prevent theft as well as bodily harm, and if someone is in your home. In other words, you can shoot people who need shootin'. I paraphrase below.

Deadly Force- It is a defense to prosecution that the conduct in question is justified under this chapter.

* § 9.21. Public Duty.
* § 9.22. Necessity.
* § 9.31. Self-Defense.
* § 9.32. Deadly Force In Defense Of Person.
* 9.33. Defense Of Third Person.
* § 9.34. Protection Of Life Or Health.
* § 9.41. Protection Of One's Own Property.
* § 9.42. Deadly Force To Protect Property.
* § 9.43. Protection Of Third Person's Property.
* § 9.44. Use Of Device To Protect Property

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/pe.toc.htm

As a response to the OP, yes I would shoot someone who threatened me with a knife in my bedroom unless he surrendered immediately upon seeing my gun. Once the guy leaves, [censored] it, I grab my gun and make sure he left. Im not leaving my house to chase a criminal and I'm not shooting anyone running away with my stuff.

Bottom line, shooting a guy who is robbing you in your room at knifepoint is a good shoot. Be happy it didn't escalate and this guy wasn't psycho. Shooting someone to defend yourself will probably ruin your life, at least financially, possibly psychologically as well. Expect to get sued civilly and possibly prosecuted. If you do have a gun in your room for a situation like this, know your laws, and get some training.

Also, all of this shooting to wound / warning shots is hollywood crap.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I'd be able to kill him. I'd like to think that I could, but I just don't know.

Anyway, what happened to the guy? Did he get arrested? Did you get your stuff back?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't get my stuff back. The guy got probation. Isn't that messed up? He had an arrested warrant elsewhere too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your Government at Work.

They've filled up the jail cells with people caught smoking pot or crack so the real crooks can go free.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

Expect to be visited by the gun wielding scumbag friends and relatives of the scumbag. This will happen when the police have already confiscated your gun. This is why it's good to have a second gun that you are also very familiar with if you have a first. Expect vandalism, threats, etc. (This according to Masaad Ayoob, who often writes of such scenarios from his experience as a law enforcement officer and professional witness in court cases.) If I were a renter, I would give my notice and move as soon as possible.

Regarding shooting in defense of one's property, I don't think that's legal in every state.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Regarding shooting in defense of one's property, I don't think that's legal in every state.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I worded that poorly. I meant Texas has *more* favorable laws than about any state.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

If I had a gun under my pillow, he'd be dead. No remorse on my part at all. F*ck him.

b

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

I didn't read the other posts, but I would without a doubt end their life if the opportunity came up while it was happening. Why would you even think about sparing someone who is threatening your life, taking your belongings, and tresspassing on your property? What has he done that shows he deserves to continue living? I offer no mercy.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

A man within 30 feet of you with a bandana over his face and a knife in his hand is clearly a direct and immediate threat to your life. Shoot for the upper body. This is not about protecting a Gamecube; it is about surviving. Fortunately, this situation had the best possible result for the OP, survival. But if you have a gun under the pillow and he's approaching you with a knife, the correct thing to do is immediately shoot him. You are trying to stop him, not trying to kill him. If he dies from the gunshot, sorry about his luck, but he brought that upon himself.

I read about two pages of responses but stopped when I couldn't take reading any more of the idiotic things people were saying. People who know nothing about guns saying "kneecap him." People who know nothing about knives saying, "it's just a knife." People saying "just threaten to shoot him," ignoring the fact of how quickly an attacker can run 10 feet and cut you up. People saying "armed thieves hardly every hurt their victims;" but you don't know if this is one of those times when the thief will attack. This is about protecting your life. Amazing that so many here put no thought into a near death experience situation and then just blurt out something utterly stupid.

I want to congratulate the OP on surviving this situation. You handled it the best way possible, since you were unarmed, and you achieved the best possible result, survival.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

John Locke says that I should.

[ QUOTE ]
Sect. 18. This makes it lawful for a man to kill a thief, who has not in the least hurt him, nor declared any design upon his life, any farther than, by the use of force, so to get him in his power, as to take away his money, or what he pleases, from him; because using force, where he has no right, to get me into his power, let his pretence be what it will, I have no reason to suppose, that he, who would take away my liberty, would not, when he had me in his power, take away every thing else. And therefore it is lawful for me to treat him as one who has put himself into a state of war with me, i.e. kill him if I can; for to that hazard does he justly expose himself, whoever introduces a state of war, and is aggressor in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once someone has you in his power, you lose all liberty. Thus, even if a thief says that he's just going to take your stuff, you have no guarantee that he won't do anything else. He has all the power, you have none, thus he can do whatever he wants.

So, yes, I'd cap that muthafuca.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
People saying "armed thieves hardly every hurt their victims;" but you don't know if this is one of those times when the thief will attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a critical factor that I think should have been focused on more. I didn't say anything myself at the time because the abuse was getting too ugly in this thread.

But it is absolutely central. Playing with your life is playing for the highest stakes possible, and you just can't afford to take a lot of chances and hope for the best. Whether a guy lights your car on fire or something is one thing; you'll live either way. But if one of the ooutcomes of a situation is that you might die, all the statistics in the world don't mean a damn thing. You just can't afford to take that chance, any more than you can afford to take the chance in a game of Russian roulette, which also has pretty damn good odds that no harm will come. When the stakes include catastrophe, it's not okay just to play around because you figure your odds, well, anyway could be worse. This is a game YOU MUST WIN.

I don't need the opinions of a bunch of social scientists and policy wonks and internet smartasses at a moment like that. I just need to live and let other people argue about it later, even if it is in court. Statistics are of no use to you in those situations, because you can't afford to be a statistical anomaly.

Circle of life my ass.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

good research nef. appreciate the work.

the issue i raised in bigsteve's case though is he left the house and went outside to see what the noise was. someone was in his exterior garage and he shot him there. i believe steve was standing out completely outside the garage also but i may be mistaken on that.

had steve been in texas and the person walked into the house, steve could have shot him no problem. the sticky situation arises that steve left his house w/ gun in hand to investigate the noise.

ill explain the other case i mentioned in a bit. multi tabling right now.

bwana

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

the local story i know of happened about 12 years ago in austin. woman lived in europe and had a stalker there. she went to grad school at the U of Texas and the guy moved to Austin to follow her. she had a restraining order w/ the austin police against him i believe.

one night she heard something outside her apartment window and she went outside w/ gun in hand to investigate. it was this guy hiding in her bushes. she shot and killed him. she was charged and convicted of the killing. dont remember what degree she was charged w/.

bwana

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

I would not hesitate to protect myself in the situation you describe. My stuff isn't that important, but my life is. The attacker's isn't.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
edit- shoot in the kneecap? yes

[/ QUOTE ]

"He shoots him below the waist, he knows the law." - Chappelle's Show

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

I would deffinately take my opponent's life.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

So, umm, what happened?

Update on the story
 

So like I said, the guy got probation. I called the cops and reported the incident. They searched his house and found cables for the systems he took, which was enough for the cops to get a warrant for him. And he got probation. I thought that surely he would get some jail time. Armed robbery should warrant some jail time, don't you think? I have no idea what's going on with the guy. I have not seen or heard from him, nor have I seen or heard from my old roommate who was friend's with this guy.

Now if something like this ever happens to me and I do have a gun nearby, I will kill the guy. I'll probably have regrets about it later in life, taking someone's life away isn't a small matter, but at least I'll know that I protected my life.

Re: Update on the story
 

Actually it's supposedly pretty common in such cases(Masaad Ayoob, again) to have no regrets if you feel you were doing it in self defense. There are always people that would, but personally I don't think I'm one of them. I'd be mostly really pissed off not at what happened to him, but what happened to me. Going through the courts isn't pretty or cheap.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People saying "armed thieves hardly every hurt their victims;" but you don't know if this is one of those times when the thief will attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a critical factor that I think should have been focused on more. I didn't say anything myself at the time because the abuse was getting too ugly in this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know he's capable of stabbing me, I don't know whether he intends to. When your life depends on it, better to react based on your enemies capabilities, than his intentions.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

Taking someone else's life should not be taken lightly. For the longest time I have always been a believe in strict gun laws. I thought that only cops should have access to guns. But guns will always be available to the public, whether it be legally or in the black market. But I'm getting off topic. The only scenario in which someone is justified in taking another's life is in self-defense. I think this is obvious. In the situation that I was in I certainly would have been legally clear to kill that guy. Now morally justified? That is a different story. Here I am after the incident still alive. What if that night I pulled a gun out of my pillow and shot the guy in the back as he was loading up my belongings? Was my life in such a danger that pulling the trigger was nessesary? I don't believe so. Someone posted something to the effect of avoiding risks that involve losing your life. That's a very good argument. This guy broke into my house and threatened me with a life. Clearly my chance of surivial was -EV when that happened, and maybe that alone justified taking a life. Some would argue that when he wielded a knife, entered my room, and threatened my life, he then lost his right to live. Perhaps. Again I still struggle with my original question.

Re: Would you kill a man who\'s robbing you? (long)
 

I keep a loaded .357 in my house for just such occurrences, and yes I'd have no problem shooting him until he was dead, and i'd make damn sure he was. Dead people can't sue you.