Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

Hm. I think there are many cultural factors that play into this. IOW, it depends how the culture evolves, and that depends on technological, environmental, and countless other factors. Therefore I think it's difficult, if not impossible, to imagine such a clean slated society. The belief in God does more than just explain scientific questions. It gives people comfort by giving them meaning to life. It also unites societies, giving people a sense of belonging.

I think the answer to your question is, it depends. If the society in question educated its people in the field of science from a young age, then no, the God hypothesis would probably never crystallize. If however, the government chose to educate its people primarily in other ways, then God would probably evolve again. God comes when people need him. Since most people will probably be preoccupied with life's daily concerns, they won't care so much about investgating the truth, and will turn to the God figure for comfort.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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So I'm against the world in which you live and breath

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This is why so many of us hate Christianity.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Because unbelief is totally opposed in principle to God Himself Christians are totally opposed to the atheistic world view.

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Unless they're in need of science in order to survive. Very few Christians would be against the naturalistic/atheistic world view that allows medical science to cure diseseases and illnesses when they are the ones that are sick. Sure, they'll pray too... but probably not before going to the doctor (with a lower-case "d").

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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That does bring me to my question I asked before - Do you really think that if there was no religion, no one to teach you there was a God that anyone born today would start believing in God? I am talking about now, after science has explained so many of the 'unexplained' phenomena of the past.

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The concept of "God" can take many different manifestations, because it is so abstract. We see different variants coming from different cultures that had little if any influence on each other.

Would religion and the concept of a "higher being" still exist? I'd put my money on it.

Would Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, the gospels and revelation still exist? I doubt it.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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I grew up with a Roman Catholic mother and an atheist father. I minored in religion in college

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Wow, me too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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*And* I'm from NJ

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

<font color="blue">Atheism is hostility toward God, enmity with Him. </font>

That is one bold and incorrect statement. How can you be hositle towards something you don't even believe exists? I'm sure most people who ARE hostile towards God, were at one time believers. Do you feel hositility towards a mermaid?

<font color="blue">Because unbelief is totally opposed in principle to God Himself Christians are totally opposed to the atheistic world view. </font>

If God is so opposed to unbelief, why did He create man with intelligence and then leave him without any physical evidence or logical proof for belief? If it was so important that someone believed in you, wouldn't you provide a bit more evidence than unlikely stories based on heresay? So God appeared regularily to man thousands of year ago, but for some reason has chosen to remain unseen and unheard since.

It would be an easy matter for God to allow everyone to believe. But having some people write a book filled with unlikely stories that isn't much different than hundreds of other religious books, is not a good way to get an intelligent creature to believe.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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This is why so many of us hate Christianity.


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Of course it is.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Unless they're in need of science in order to survive. Very few Christians would be against the naturalistic/atheistic world view that allows medical science to cure diseseases and illnesses when they are the ones that are sick. Sure, they'll pray too... but probably not before going to the doctor (with a lower-case "d").


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We are in the world but not of the world.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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If God is so opposed to unbelief, why did He create man with intelligence and then leave him without any physical evidence or logical proof for belief?


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He didn't.
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It would be an easy matter for God to allow everyone to believe


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God is not the cause of your unbelief.

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not a good way to get an intelligent creature to believe.


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Intelligence isn't the issue.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Atheism is hostility toward God, enmity with Him

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That's a rather sanctimonious claim. Atheism doesn't go around claiming God doesn't exist. It is healthily unconcerned with his existence or lack thereof.

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I'm against the death of the soul and for eternal life.

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And if I had a choice, I would be too.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Atheism doesn't go around claiming God doesn't exist.

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I think it does that by definition.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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That's a rather sanctimonious claim. Atheism doesn't go around claiming God doesn't exist. It is healthily unconcerned with his existence or lack thereof.

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Isn't that an agnostic?

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Atheism is hostility toward God, enmity with Him.

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If I wasn't an atheist I could answer, "If there were a god ... ". Atheism is merely a philosophical statement. Atheists, otoh, may have none or various hostilities. Those that have a hostility regarding their position tend to have it focused on things like bigoted thinking in the guise of religion, or some religion wanting to enforce compliance with their version of it, or if it gets personalized it'll be at narrow-minded, dogmatic bullies ( like a Falwell).

God is not something we can be hostile toward, by definition. Too bad, beause the flip side of the purpose the god-concept serves for religion could be a great tension reliever for atheists, it just doesn't work that way....darn.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

In a sense, yes. I'm talking about the behavior of atheism, or at least my brand of atheism. It is passive, not active. God's nonexistence doesn't actively participate in everday life and thought.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Atheists: (if you were non-atheist at an earlier point) What caused you to believe what you believe about theology?


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I was raised Catholic, I stopped believing in that garbage in college. I stopped believing for two reasons:

1. No evidence, whatsoever, of a god. Even if I (or anyone else, for that matter) could not disprove certain instances of paranormal occurrences, this did not mean that there had to be a god, this leads into No. 2...

2. Occum's razer - the simplest explanation is usually the the correct one. Which of the two is more simple. A) The the Universe began and life evolved off of matter and energy behaving in their natural states; or B) a super powerful and invisible being exists beyond the physical world, who can foresee how everything will occur down to the atomic level, and so on and so forth...I choose A

In addition, I have an extreme distaste for religion people who only want your money. How many of you have gone to any church where they didn't want your money? I bet not a single person.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

No, I believe there is no God. Why would I spend my time defying something I don't think exists? There is nothing to defy.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Isn't that an agnostic?

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agnostics are a subset of atheism. A-theism = lack of a belief in god. It can be chopped up various ways from there but the answer to the initial question - "Do you believe in God(of some definition naturally)" is answered "No" by an agnostic.
The second question "How do you view this topic?" is where the subsets take over.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

I'm going to make fun of you before one of the Christians gets the chance:

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1. No evidence, whatsoever, of a god. Even if I (or anyone else, for that matter) could not disprove certain instances of paranormal occurrences, this did not mean that there had to be a god

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That would actually be a relatively good argument for God.

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Occum's razer

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*SMACK*

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Which of the two is more simple. A) The the Universe began and life evolved off of matter and energy behaving in their natural states; or B) a super powerful and invisible being exists beyond the physical world, who can foresee how everything will occur down to the atomic level, and so on and so forth

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I have an easier time grasping the ideas in Genesis than I do the physics of the creation of the Universe. God's motives don't make much sense to me, but still...

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In addition, I have an extreme distaste for religion people who only want your money. How many of you have gone to any church where they didn't want your money? I bet not a single person.

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I have. I used to go to a Greek Orthodox mission church that was owned by a priest, who also worked at Covenant House, a charitable organization in Atlantic City. He refused most donations, and what few donations he accepted went into the thrift shop that was annexed to the church so he could get more supplies for the poor.



Don't make the rest of us atheists look bad.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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In a sense, yes. I'm talking about the behavior of atheism, or at least my brand of atheism. It is passive, not active. God's nonexistence doesn't actively participate in everday life and thought.

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Ah, ok. I see what you meant.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

Here's a question: is atheism more of a belief or a non-belief?

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

I think atheism is a broad idea and there are forms of it that can be classified as belief. My version, however, is non-belief. This has to do with its passive behavior, which I mentioned in another post.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Isn't that an agnostic?

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agnostics are a subset of atheism. A-theism = lack of a belief in god. It can be chopped up various ways from there but the answer to the initial question - "Do you believe in God(of some definition naturally)" is answered "No" by an agnostic.
The second question "How do you view this topic?" is where the subsets take over.

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I think of the terms as describing two different aspects of belief -- two variables, if you will. The "theism" variable describes the objective part of the belief (god vs. "no god"), whereas the "gnosticism" variable describes the certainty with which that belief is held. Thus, you can have "agnostic Christians" and "gnostic Atheists" and everything in between.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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It would be an easy matter for God to allow everyone to believe


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God is not the cause of your unbelief.

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God is THE Ultimate Cause. All causes are under God's cause. As a Calvinist, you should know this.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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Here's a question: is atheism more of a belief or a non-belief?

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Non-belief.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

<font color="blue">So I'm against the world in which you live and breath and for the real, true world that God has created and will someday restore. </font>

I think Bin Laden feels the same way. Scary, isn't it?

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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In addition, I have an extreme distaste for religion people who only want your money. How many of you have gone to any church where they didn't want your money? I bet not a single person.

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Are you making the argument that because a church asks for donations, that's a reason to believe that god does or doesn't exist? Because that's a pretty weak case for atheism right there.

Say what you will about the Catholic Church (and I disagree with many of their positions myself), but their charities have helped millions of people in need.

I also have to argue the point made by many of the atheists that people who believe in God are so concerned with the next world that we can't fully enjoy this one. It's not true. I'm thankful for every day I'm alive.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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I also have to argue the point made by many of the atheists that people who believe in God are so concerned with the next world that we can't fully enjoy this one. It's not true. I'm thankful for every day I'm alive.

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Good for you!

It's a shame that other Christians do you a disservice.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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God is THE Ultimate Cause. All causes are under God's cause. As a Calvinist, you should know this.


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As a former Calvinist you should know the answer to this. That God is the sine qua non because without His creation there would be no creatures to sin does not relieve the creature of responsibility. God is not the proximate cause of your unbelief, nor is He responsible for it.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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I think Bin Laden feels the same way. Scary, isn't it?


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This is a non-answer because you are against the world I live in. Does that make you Bin Laden?

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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It would be an easy matter for God to allow everyone to believe


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God is not the cause of your unbelief.

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God is THE Ultimate Cause. All causes are under God's cause. As a Calvinist, you should know this.

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As a former Calvinist you should know the answer to this. That God is the sine qua non because without His creation there would be no creatures to sin does not relieve the creature of responsibility. God is not the proximate cause of your unbelief, nor is He responsible for it.

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I didn't say he was the proximate cause (we have free will), or tha He is responsible (he made us responsible by giving us free will). However, he is still the Ultimate cause. The Prime Causer.

The fact is, Calvinist doctrine states that nobody can choose to believe except that God chooses to supply his irresestible Grace to them.

So, summary: God created man, gave him free will, man sinned &amp; can no longer love/believe in God, until God chooses to save man. So, is God the "cause" of someone's unbelief... Primarily, yes, secondarily, no, finally, yes.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

I am not against the world you live in. There is a big difference. And that's where I think people like you misunderstand people like me. Hey, if your beliefs are right, I think it could be a beautiful thing! I just don't view it as a realistic possibility.

Re: A question for Christians AND atheists
 

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The fact is, Calvinist doctrine states that nobody can choose to believe except that God chooses to supply his irresestible Grace to them.


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I'm not completely decided about Calvinism on this point. I tend to be somewhat between them and Arminians. Mostly I don't really know what the full answer is though along with both I agree that man is responsible for his unbelief.

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Primarily, yes, secondarily, no, finally, yes.


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Finally as in ultimate but not as in morally or legally responsible.