Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How could you be up 60k and your bankroll is 8k? In your original post, you made it seem like you won this money and promptly lost it back. Where did the other 52k go?
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. How is this your "all time" stats graph?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to ensure my college is paid for first, in case some more bad 'variance' hits me. I am considering taking out about 10K to jump me back up to the 1K's but would prefer the rest to be locked in. Its a personal preference, but I think rebuilding for a couple months would be better than risking ruin and coming up from low stakes again.

Obviously 40K isnt enough for college, so I will be making contributions quarterly as soon as I start making real money again.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
You must be willing to be critical of yourelf

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you think I made ~100K in 1 1/2 years starting with $50 on paradise poker?

It sure as hell wasn't by thinking I was the best player in the world.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

I never said you don't understand variance and I never said you suck. Why are you calling with top pair if you have reason to believe you're beat? Why are you calling with sets if you're confident your opponent has the flush? You must be doing something right if your reads are correct as to what your opponent has, now answer the question as to why you are unable to let your hand go and you're on your way to playing better. There is a post in the psychology forum about this. But if you're unwilling to criticize yourself and find your mistakes and the reasons for them, excpect to have more swings. And quit being so f.ucking defensive when people point out things that might help you.
As for myself, I'm not the best, I know that. I'm a student of the game. When I'm locked in and in the zone, I can make some pretty incredible reads and call guys down with crap because I know my crap is better than his crap. However, sometimes too often I think I get knock a guy off a hand. I know what he has and I know what he has is very vulnerable, so, I bet with authority to get him off his hand and he calls me. So, I should probably do that less. I was trying to steal the blinds too much and Barry Greenstein told me I need to do it less so that my button raises will not lose respect. Admitting my flaws is the only way to correct them.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't post a single example of a hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Here you go...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (3 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($2531)
SB ($763.50)
BB ($1344)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $70</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $330</font>, Hero calls $280.

Flop: ($710) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB calls $994 (All-In), Hero calls $994.

Turn: ($2698) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($2698) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $2698

Results below:
BB has 3s 3h (three of a kind, threes).
Hero has Ah Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: BB wins $2698.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($2567.50)
Hero ($2078)
BB ($2000)
UTG ($2151)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $10.
UTG calls $20, Button calls $20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $90</font>, BB calls $80, UTG calls $80, Button calls $80.

Flop: ($400) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $100</font>, Hero calls $100, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $300</font>, UTG calls $300, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1000</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $1751 (All-In), Hero calls $978 (All-In).

Turn: ($4829) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($4829) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $4829

Results below:
Hero has Ks Kc (full house, kings full of fours).
UTG has 4s 4h (four of a kind, fours).
Outcome: UTG wins $4829.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

This one was unfortunate.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (3 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($1940)
BB ($1985)
Button ($979.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $10.
Button calls $20, Hero (poster) completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $45</font>, Button folds, Hero calls $45.

Flop: ($150) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $150</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $300</font>, Hero calls $1725 (All-In), BB calls $1575.

Turn: ($3900) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($3900) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $3900

Results below:
Hero has Tc 9s (straight, king high).
BB has Th Ac (straight, ace high).
Outcome: BB wins $3900.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously 40K isnt enough for college

[/ QUOTE ]

thank god for state schools.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never said you don't understand variance and I never said you suck. Why are you calling with top pair if you have reason to believe you're beat? Why are you calling with sets if you're confident your opponent has the flush? You must be doing something right if your reads are correct as to what your opponent has, now answer the question as to why you are unable to let your hand go and you're on your way to playing better. There is a post in the psychology forum about this. But if you're unwilling to criticize yourself and find your mistakes and the reasons for them, excpect to have more swings. And quit being so f.ucking defensive when people point out things that might help you.
As for myself, I'm not the best, I know that. I'm a student of the game. When I'm locked in and in the zone, I can make some pretty incredible reads and call guys down with crap because I know my crap is better than his crap. However, sometimes too often I think I get knock a guy off a hand. I know what he has and I know what he has is very vulnerable, so, I bet with authority to get him off his hand and he calls me. So, I should probably do that less. I was trying to steal the blinds too much and Barry Greenstein told me I need to do it less so that my button raises will not lose respect. Admitting my flaws is the only way to correct them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you have said in this post. Sorry if I offended anyone trying to help me. You sound like you have some of the same flaws as me, like trying to push a guy of top pair weak kicker with a big river bet, and being called. I am working on this along with other flaws.

1) I did not play optimally during this stretch. What I have learned is to take a break after losing big, not chase losses, even when I think I can beat the game

2) I have reached the level I am at by being tough on myself and admitting my flaws. I think this is the best way to improve. Look at big hands you lost and analyze if you could have done anything about it.

3) When I return to the 2k, I will not make the same mistakes again.

4) My situation is not all that bad, I have 50K in the bank/stock market, and 10K in my BR(won $2000 in NL400 recently), so I don't have much pressure to play too much.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Obviously 40K isnt enough for college

[/ QUOTE ]

thank god for state schools.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually 40K will cover tuition easily, its living arrangements and food I am concerned with.

MSU is ~15K/year including room and board. When I move to an apartment it will be roughly the same price as living in the dorms.

So overall I'm probably only going to need 20K more to be safe.

But yeah, private school costs a ton. My friend goes to one with 500 kids so he could play baseball, and his tuition is around 35K a year!

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

I can see you've missed the point of my comments completely. That's too bad.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Not really, I know I played bad during this stretch, but some were saying that it was 100% tilt. I was posting one of the hands the put me on tilt. That is all.

Your point is that I need to be critical of my own play, which I agree with. I'll post a hand I played horribly now.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 ($1367)
MP2 ($4573)
CO ($3116.95)
Hero ($5210)
SB ($7860.90)
BB ($2913)
UTG ($1163.99)
UTG+1 ($800.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $70</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $230</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $800</font>, BB calls $550.

Flop: ($1610) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($1610) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $850</font>, Hero calls $4410 (All-In), BB calls $1263 (All-In).

River: ($8133) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $8133

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Ah Ad (two pair, aces and queens).
Hero has Ks Kc (two pair, kings and queens).
Outcome: BB wins $5836. Hero wins $2297. </font>

I think I should have just called his RR preflop, raised his flop bet, check/check turn, and call river.


NEXT- This was my worst play probably

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($3337)
CO ($1890)
Button ($2000)
SB ($1978)
BB ($2000)
UTG ($2511.70)
MP1 ($2556)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $60</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $60, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: ($150) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $120</font>, Hero calls $120.

Turn: ($390) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $120</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $400</font>, UTG calls $280.

River: ($1190) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG calls $1931.70 (All-In), Hero calls $1931.70.

Final Pot: $5053.40

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has Qs Qd (straight, queen high).
Hero has 7c 7h (straight, jack high).
Outcome: UTG wins $5053.40. </font>

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not really, I know I played bad during this stretch, but some were saying that it was 100% tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is that really what I said? Did I say it was 100% tilt? No, I didn't. You need to grow up, get used to hearing things that may not be pleasant, and learn from things, not create a thread bitching about losing 30 large and expect everyone to feel sorry for you. We've all lost that kind of money. Some of us have lost more. If you want to delude yourself into thinking there was nothing you could've done about it, you're mistaken. THAT'S THE POINT. This should be a learning experience. Figure out how it happened. What went wrong. What were the signs this was happening. Is there anything you could've done to stop it from happening. Ask these questions. Find the answers. Then your swings may not be so severe. Stop reacting so god damn defensively to what people are saying.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

party flipped the switch on you [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Thank you. I am not saying you're 100% wrong. You may only be 5% wrong. But there is never a situation where it is 100% bad luck. At least, I don't believe that is ever the case. You must always be willing to ask yourself the question, "have I done something wrong?" Is there something I can change in myself. That's all you can do. You can't change the outcome of hands or what cards flop. You can only change your decisions. Just make sure you're making the best decisions and you'll be fine. You sound young to me. I'll bet in two or three years you'll be pretty dangerous at the table.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Yeah my original post was pretty pointless now that I look at it. Sometimes it feels better just to post it to get it off my mind so I can refocus and get back into the game.

Bad beats are worthless to post, but I couldnt resist the 1-outer [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img], that one was just nasty.

I think I'm going to take 6K out of the stock market to jump start me back into the 1K.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah my original post was pretty pointless now that I look at it. Sometimes it feels better just to post it to get it off my mind so I can refocus and get back into the game.

Bad beats are worthless to post, but I couldnt resist the 1-outer [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img], that one was just nasty.

I think I'm going to take 6K out of the stock market to jump start me back into the 1K.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of those hands aren't bad beats, they are you calling all in with the worst hand. That isn't a bad beat. Calling with the idiot end of the straight twice, TPTK vs. set, KK vs. AA on QQ9 flop... The only hand here I believe I'd go broke on is the T9 vs. AT and maybe the AK vs. 33 if the guy was a total loon(looks like he was, in which case I would have set him in preflop anyways). Anyways, RussianBear has tried to help you just about as much as you could want for a simple "waaah I'm on a downswing" post and you refuted most of his help, so I guess I shouldn't bother, either. Good luck when you get back into the 1k.
Peace,
James

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm going to take 6K out of the stock market to jump start me back into the 1K.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's your business, I wouldn't advice it, but that's your business. I would suggest getting your bankroll back up the old-fashioned way, earn it playing poker. 1, you'll humble yourself playing at the lower limits, 2, you'll gain experience, 3, the money you've invested will continue to work for you. If you're not living off your poker money, it's probably best to build your roll rather than add to it with other money. Just my opinion.
Swings are a part of the game. Taking money from one place to compensate, probably may not be the best way to go about it. Maybe you're not ready for the higher game yet. Have you considered that? Maybe you need some time first. You really don't want to be robbing from your future (your investments) to build your bankroll. It's best to build the roll through play.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Can't say I recommend taking money out of stocks to go back to NL 1k. I know you're doing well in 400, so stick around for a while and see what kind of things you can do for your bank roll.
Also, I've never met anyone who was more critical of his own play than jonny. Yes, the low bank roll and refusing to move down was a mistake, but it's not like he is saying party is rigged and he's a pro, because he never did. He's simply asking for others experiences with this problem and advice on where to go from this point.
Also, people need to stop bragging about their giant losses like it's some sort of accomplishment.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's best to build the roll through play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. I think I will indeed stay at 400 for a bit until I get my BR and confidence back up.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, RussianBear has tried to help you just about as much as you could want for a simple "waaah I'm on a downswing" post and you refuted most of his help

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't refute russianbear's help. In fact, I agreed with pretty much everything he said.

[ QUOTE ]
so I guess I shouldn't bother, either.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please do, so far the only help you have given is questioning the fact that I am up in 2K. Any advice would be appreciated.

PS- I did not want this to turn into a bad beat post. I played badly too, you know this, I know this, it does not need to be proven again.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, people need to stop bragging about their giant losses like it's some sort of accomplishment.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going to be nice to you only because your avatar is my alma matta. Nobody is bragging, it's a part of the life that he needs to get used to. My only point is, and was, how could his behavior have affected the situation. Is there anything he could have done differently?

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. I think I will indeed stay at 400 for a bit until I get my BR and confidence back up.


[/ QUOTE ]
I hope you stick to that. If you do, you'll thank me for it later. It's not an issue of confidence. You were playing 2000NL, you obviously have confidence. It's about having the bankroll to handle the swings and I think everyone will tell you to build your bankroll through playing, not taking from money intended for other things to add to the BR. You'll get into a bad habit and it'll begin to affect your life in very bad ways.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Pretty lame how he's making a post asking about variance and losing streaks and being forced to defend his play.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty lame how he's making a post asking about variance and losing streaks and being forced to defend his play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, we should blissfully let him go on stacking himself over and over in a game he can't beat. Maybe he can beat it, but it sure didn't seem like that originally. People are trying to help him, not criticize him.
-James

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
People are trying to help him, not criticize him.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]

Pretty lame how he's making a post asking about variance and losing streaks and being forced to defend his play.

[/ QUOTE ]


It's pretty common for a losing player to blame his losses on variance and bad-luck.

Just taking him for his word that he 'knows what he's doing' just because he says so is a mistake.
Far more losing streaks are due to inferior play than many players are willing to admit.

Many players are heard to say that they are 'really good' at poker but they just went through the most awful losing streak and string of bad-beats imaginable.
Many of these players would be wise to admit that they were playing above their bankroll and that they probably aren't as good at poker as they thought they were.
They make plays that they think are obvious or 'automatic' when they are not even close to 'automatic' and are sometimes plain wrong.

It's just self-denial.


Jonny admits that his play is flawed at times...but also just points to various bad-beats as the reason why he's losing so much. And I think that pointing to all of one's bad-beats instead of taking a long, hard look at one's own play is the unhealthy way to go.


as far as the 'variance' part of his questions go. I think he's received several responses that dropping 15 buy-in's isn't as impossible or uncommon as he might have thought...and that if he wasn't prepared for the possibility of a $30k drop he shouldn't have been playing that high to begin with.


In short: It's hard to have much patience for the wide variety of players who say, "I'm a good player. I really really am. But I'm super-duper unlucky. But I know that I know what I'm doing."
It comes up over and over and over again.


Personally, I'm on a down-swing myself right now.
And I just seem to be the opposite of the typical mind-set. My immediate reaction to even a mild downswing is, "I'm pretty damned lousy at poker. I really could have saved a bet if I played that hand better" etc etc.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

sorry if this was discussed in this post before, but did you lose most or all of the 30k at 1 table? because that could be your other problem.. table selection. Once people see you losing, it becomes a vicious cycle, they want to suck u out. Theres a couple of excellent articles out there about table selection and about table image and momentum.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
sorry if this was discussed in this post before, but did you lose most or all of the 30k at 1 table?

[/ QUOTE ]

If only I had that kind of endurance, 10 thousand hands in a row! To be serious though, it came over the period of a week. I'm not so sure they were tyring to suckout.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]


Just taking him for his word that he 'knows what he's doing' just because he says so is a mistake.
Far more losing streaks are due to inferior play than many players are willing to admit.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. My losing streak was not purely bad luck, nor purely bad play, but a vicious combination of the two.

[ QUOTE ]

Jonny admits that his play is flawed at times...but also just points to various bad-beats as the reason why he's losing so much. And I think that pointing to all of one's bad-beats instead of taking a long, hard look at one's own play is the unhealthy way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]
I review my big losing hands after every session and see how I could have played them better. Usually I learn from them and won't make the same mistake again... This is a good tactic to use and I would encourage anyone trying to better their game to do so.
[ QUOTE ]


In short: It's hard to have much patience for the wide variety of players who say, "I'm a good player. I really really am. But I'm super-duper unlucky. But I know that I know what I'm doing."
It comes up over and over and over again.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I pretty much hate those people too. I always tell my roomate after one of us is running hot/cold: "We all have the same luck in the long run, so stop complaining" etc..

I think its fair to say I know what I'm doing. I have studied the game and been critical of my own play. How many players turn $50 into $100K in a 150K hand, 1.5 year period? Answer: none who are not HIGHLY critical of their own play.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

I agree with you Bob. I've had plenty of swings as a result of bad luck, but the most severe swings I could never blame on luck alone. There's always something I did wrong, whether it be playing too loose, being too damn stubborn, playing tired or in a bad mood, being too proud to drop levels, etc.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Russian Bear, hell yeah BG. Second off, this topic has run it's course, I learned alot just from reading some of the better posts. In short, Jonny is a good player who had not run into a situation like this before but will learn from it and become a better player because of it. Tuck Foledo this Tuesday.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Tuck Foledo all the time. Omar Jenkins, number one overall draft pick? He should be. My buddy is a huge OSU fan and he likes to rip the MAC. I like to point out to him that Marshall is one of only two colleges to have two starting QBs in the NFL (Leftwich and Pennington). There are three starting total including that punk in Pittsburgh. When Frye takes over in Cleveland, that'll be four MAC QBs in the NFL. Whereas Ohio State will still have no QBs in the NFL running teams. Not to mention one of the best wide receivers ever comes from a MAC school. Oh yeah, Jason Taylor went to Akron. Go MAC. Go BG. Can't read. Can't write. Kent State.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many players turn $50 into $100K in a 150K hand, 1.5 year period?

[/ QUOTE ]

I turned $20 into around $85,000 in &lt;5months and ~100k hands...98% ring. But I digress...

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Take it the sports-forum guys (from a Miami-Ohio guy who is a little bitter from having seen his alma-mater suck on national TV like few teams have sucked before)

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So he basically lost 15 buy ins in 5 days.

[/ QUOTE ]

$hit I lost 6 buyins within 4 hours this week....only at the NL100 though but still it hurt so I sympathize but since then I've come back to win 9 buyins in 3 days.... the swings are wild so 15 buyins in 5 days is probably more common than one would expect.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many players turn $50 into $100K in a 150K hand, 1.5 year period?

[/ QUOTE ]
That really doesn't say much about your skill-level. I somehow doubt that you've only been playing for 1.5 years and you're ready for bigger games. Those kind of statements do not help your argument. What you should do is post what has happened to you, then not respond to anything anyone says. Just read what people write and take it in. I'm serious. Don't defend yourself, don't try to explain, just listen. If you do that, I guarantee you'll get some great advice.