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Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
[ QUOTE ]
Myrtle, I'm not equivocating. I meant dead in overall or net effect, not as in completely non-existent. The effect of today's racism is so little or non-existent it might as well be dead (especially when you figure in the counterveighing advantage of Affirmative Action). And relatively few Americans today are racist as well. [/ QUOTE ] ...Your opinion is based upon your personal experiences, as is mine, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I happen to vigorously disagree with it, and my opinion is based upon my own personal experiences surrounding this subject. I have offered the below opinion regarding racism twice now in this string.... [ QUOTE ] What has happened is that its' practitioners have gotten much more sophisticated in practicing it, and have developed politically acceptable responses when their practices are pointed out. [/ QUOTE ] You have not yet commented on it. Why not? I don't believe that I'm the only one in the Politics forum that notices how you deal (or don't deal) with certain things. You can keep tap dancing around certain things.....You can wordsmith all you want......You can rephrase statements or questions so that your response will accomodate your particular ideology. You may be able to get it by most of the posters here, but not all of them. You've been called out on it a number of times, on a number of issues, by a number of people (me included) and you predictably revert back to PC behavior. I'm getting weary of dancing with you, which of course, is one of the things that you count on from those who disagree with your point of view. You hide behind your moderators badge, smug in the conviction that if/when things get too hot for you to handle, you can officiously invoke your power of censorship to silence those who disagree 'just a wee bit too much with you'. Quite frankly, nothing you say in any of these strings has any real worth as long as you moderate. Get out from behind that armor plating and deal with other posters on an equal footing, or stop addressing issues here. |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
MMMMMMM.... just give up.
Don't ask for specific examples of anything these posters are trying to prove. Most of the people who post on 2 + 2 are to busy and/or smart to move past the "theory" stage and see what's actually happening around them. If liberals want to believe that racism still runs rampant in this country... then that is just a self-full-filling prophecy that allows them to remember the one thing in their parties history that they got right... ending segregation and other such government endorsed biggotary. |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
If you want to find the source of the continued dissemination of racist perceptions... look no further than the media.
All their lead stories on violence and crime have show photography of young African-Americans. This means one of two things... 1) Either the media is racist and only want to convey "blacks" as criminals -OR- 2) "Blacks" are the only one committing the crimes... Either way, good luck trying to get liberals to admit either 1) The media is evil, corrupt, and bias -OR- 2) There are an overwhelming number of African American criminals in LA right now. |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
[ QUOTE ]
If liberals want to believe that racism still runs rampant in this country... then that is just a self-fulfilling prophecy that allows them to remember the one thing in their parties history that they got right... ending segregation and other such government endorsed bigotry. [/ QUOTE ] But they are not remembering one thing they got right -- they are remembering a fight they lost. They are continuing the fight and taking the position that they have always been on the moral high ground. If you press the issue with facts, they posit that there was a complete role reversal in the mid '60s. If conservatives then take claim to be the party of JFK ... |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to find the source of the continued dissemination of racist perceptions... look no further than the media. All their lead stories on violence and crime have show photography of young African-Americans. This means one of two things... 1) Either the media is racist and only want to convey "blacks" as criminals -OR- 2) "Blacks" are the only one committing the crimes... Either way, good luck trying to get liberals to admit either 1) The media is evil, corrupt, and bias -OR- 2) There are an overwhelming number of African American criminals in LA right now. [/ QUOTE ] This is a post without a point. You should pay 2+2 back for the bandwith you've wasted. I'll spell it out for you in case it's not obvious. Some enormous percentage of the people that are/were marooned in New Orleans, with no food, no drink, no clothes, no money, no vehicles, and little hope are black. So if you're post's intention is to make some great racial observation, can it. It is intellectually dishonest, Mr. "Biatch". |
Response for Myrtle
Myrtle-
[ QUOTE ] I have offered the below opinion regarding racism twice now in this string.... [ QUOTE ] Quote: What has happened is that its' practitioners have gotten much more sophisticated in practicing it, and have developed politically acceptable responses when their practices are pointed out. [/ QUOTE ] You have not yet commented on it. Why not? [/ QUOTE ] Why respond? Let me see if I can understand the statement. Correct me if I'm wrong --- "its' practitioners" = racists. "have gotten much more sophisticated in practicing it" = have become better racists. "have developed politically acceptable responses" = lie. "when their practices are pointed out." = when called racists. Let me put it back together ... "What has happened is that racists have become better racists, and lie when called racists." Is that the brilliant thought you wanted comments on? Maybe it deserves a new thread. |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If liberals want to believe that racism still runs rampant in this country... then that is just a self-fulfilling prophecy that allows them to remember the one thing in their parties history that they got right... ending segregation and other such government endorsed bigotry. [/ QUOTE ] But they are not remembering one thing they got right -- they are remembering a fight they lost. They are continuing the fight and taking the position that they have always been on the moral high ground. If you press the issue with facts, they posit that there was a complete role reversal in the mid '60s. If conservatives then take claim to be the party of JFK ... [/ QUOTE ] Streetwise... do you actually think Liberals "lost the good fight" to make it better for blacks in this country? I don't... I think that thanks to a liberal thought process, life for African Americans has gotten better over the last 50 years... whether that process originally belonged to Dems or Conservs matters not... |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
[ QUOTE ]
SheetWise - do you actually think Liberals "lost the good fight" to make it better for blacks in this country? [/ QUOTE ] I don't believe liberals ever fought that fight. They lost their fight against civil rights in the '60s. Blacks now have civil rights. What's your point? |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
for a moment your post sounded like you thought things are just as bad now as they were in the 50's...
My miss-understanding. |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to find the source of the continued dissemination of racist perceptions... look no further than the media. All their lead stories on violence and crime have show photography of young African-Americans. This means one of two things... 1) Either the media is racist and only want to convey "blacks" as criminals -OR- 2) "Blacks" are the only one committing the crimes... [/ QUOTE ] 3) Blacks are committing the vast majority of the crimes...but the fact that they are black at all is beside the point since 6X% of NO is black and XX% of the too-poor/uneducated-to-evacuate are black. [ QUOTE ] Either way, good luck trying to get liberals to admit either 1) The media is evil, corrupt, and bias -OR- 2) There are an overwhelming number of African American criminals in LA right now. [/ QUOTE ] Technically number 2 is correct. However, there are also "an overwhelming number of African Americans in NO right now" so if a certain percent of current NO people (the poor) resorted to crime, would you be surpised if "an overwhelming number" of those criminals were black? This seems to make your post somewhere between pointless and bigoted. |
More fun than Sklansky\'s dogs
[ QUOTE ]
Realize that by "dead" I don't mean "non-existent". [/ QUOTE ] This made my day. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
[ QUOTE ]
MMMMMMM.... just give up. Don't ask for specific examples of anything these posters are trying to prove. Most of the people who post on 2 + 2 are to busy and/or smart to move past the "theory" stage and see what's actually happening around them. If liberals want to believe that racism still runs rampant in this country... then that is just a self-full-filling prophecy that allows them to remember the one thing in their parties history that they got right... ending segregation and other such government endorsed biggotary. [/ QUOTE ] ....Tired & trite. Deal with it the only way you know how. Turn it into a 'Liberal' vs. 'Conservative' issue so that YOU can then reframe it and respond on your own terms. FWIW, if your "see what's actually happening around them" comment is directed towards me, I'd be more than happy to compare bona fides on the 'experience' basis. Shall we take a crack at that? |
Re: Either way...
So, if I dont provide a specific personally observed incident you plan to continue to live in the happy little world that there is no racism in this country?
I provided a serious post with enough examples of racism in the country to trash, once again, your hypothesis causing in this instance for you to redefine DEAD to not mean DEAD. Can you provide one example of where Affirmative Action has personally impacted you in a deletrious way? [ QUOTE ] Notice I'm not saying such things NEVER occur. I'm saying they are so rare as to be rather negligible on the whole and are likely more than offset by Affirmative Action (in overall effect in the country). [/ QUOTE ] Now that we have established that racism is not DEAD but alive. At least we are beginning to talk about degree's of racism. Notice that in this paragraph you say absolutely nothing but hide behind unquantified and unsubstantiated words like "rare" and "likely" and "negligible". So, any incident that occurs can now be written of as one those "rare" instances, the "negligible" impact on the life of the person impacted (does it really matter to you if some racist on a forum calls you racist term) and the "likely" self analyzed opinion that you are "better". |
Re: Response for Myrtle
[ QUOTE ]
Myrtle- [ QUOTE ] I have offered the below opinion regarding racism twice now in this string.... [ QUOTE ] Quote: What has happened is that its' practitioners have gotten much more sophisticated in practicing it, and have developed politically acceptable responses when their practices are pointed out. [/ QUOTE ] You have not yet commented on it. Why not? [/ QUOTE ] Why respond? Let me see if I can understand the statement. Correct me if I'm wrong --- "its' practitioners" = racists. "have gotten much more sophisticated in practicing it" = have become better racists. "have developed politically acceptable responses" = lie. "when their practices are pointed out." = when called racists. Let me put it back together ... "What has happened is that racists have become better racists, and lie when called racists." Is that the brilliant thought you wanted comments on? Maybe it deserves a new thread. [/ QUOTE ] Thank you for making my point crystal clear.....to those of limited capacity. |
Re: Either way...
[ QUOTE ]
Can you provide one example of where Affirmative Action has personally impacted you in a deletrious way? [/ QUOTE ] Affirmative Action was written by white men for white men -- with the help of non-white liberals who bought the lie. If it wasn't for AA it would be almost impossible for white kids to get into science or math departments. My guess is it's mostly Asians who have been impacted in a "deletrious way". |
Re: Response for Myrtle
Always happy to shine some light in that direction.
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Re: Response for Myrtle
[ QUOTE ]
Always happy to shine some light in that direction. [/ QUOTE ] I have always been under the impression that no light shines from the source of your opinion? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] |
Re: Either way...
You provided not even ONE specific example--mucxh less one specifuic example personally witnessed by you. The following are not "examples":
[ QUOTE ] If you think that police do not practice profiling anymore... If you think that killing a turbaned Indian because someone thought he was a Islamist .. If you seriously think that a black middle manager has the same chance for promotion as a white middle manager at many a corporation... If you seriously think that there are no dads who would have a fit if the daughter brought home a boy of different color. If you seriously think that blacks dont see whites as strange and different as do whites see blacks... If you seriously think that welfare is not iuntended to keep minorities "quiet". Racial prejudice comes with the territory baby -- all 50 states. [/ QUOTE ] If racism were as prevalent in this country today as you claim it to be, don't you think you or I or any other respected poster would have piped up with just ONE personally observed, serious, incident? That you couldn't do so, helps support my thesis that racism is for all practical effects and purposes, more or less dead in today's America. What remnants yet linger may well have far less 'oomph' in actual effect than Affirmative Action alone has in the opposite direction. People AREN'T being NOT hired because they are black, overall--if anything, instead they're hired MORE OFTEN because they ARE black, due to affirative action. So the worries about racism are greatly overblown in today's America BECAUSE RACISM JUST ISN'T HAVING MUCH OF A DELETERIOUS EFFECT AT ALL, anymore, in America today. Also, by far most Americans aren't racist. You can't take the standards from the 50's and 60's and apply them today. Society has changed, and has grown far, far less racist than it was 50 years ago. Yet some are acting like nothing at all has changed and remain fighting the threadbare battles of the past. |
Re: More fun than Sklansky\'s dogs
I just went back and reread my original post. In it, I never even claimed that "racism was dead"--here is what I wrote:
[ QUOTE ] Well, Cyrus, this isn't the 1950's. There is very little prejudice in America today against minorities, and what little there is, is quite possibly more than functionally offset by overwielding programs such as Affirmative Action. All in all, the race card, and race issue ARE DEAD--except for those with axes to grind or those who remain ideologically mired in ancient (modern) history. We don't live in "a racist society" at present. If anything, we live in one of the least racist societies in the entire history of the world. But will anything less than perfection ever satisfy the Leftists, or those with axes to grind or special interests? Sadly, I think the answer to that question is "no". [/ QUOTE ] This was misconstrued and I was misquoted as saying "racism is DEAD". I'm not going to bother going back right now to find out who the culprit was. So foolish me for having tried to clarify a statement I didn't even make. And someone needs to learn to read a tad better, too. |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
Myrtle, if you have personal expereience of serious incidents of racism occurring in this country, in the workplace or, say, in court, that had a seriously deleterious effect on someone, well then yes: I'd like to hear it. I was asking ACPlayer, but it is a question open to all, including you of course.
Please describe the incident, and the approximate year in which it occurred. Apparently neither myself, nor ACPplayer, nor the other poster, nor Cyrus have personally observed such an incident. Yet they are more or less claiming racism is prevalent or even ubiquitous--which puzzles me because I've never experienced it or observed it in action and to harmful effect (other than someone merely stating racist views. In other words, I haven't seen anyone lose their job because of it, or not get hired because of it, or get beat up because of it...etc. Hence I do think it is relatively rare--and even rarer in seriously deleterious effect.) |
Re: More fun than Sklansky\'s dogs
[ QUOTE ]
I just went back and reread my original post. In it, I never even claimed that "racism was dead"--here is what I wrote: [ QUOTE ] Well, Cyrus, this isn't the 1950's. There is very little prejudice in America today against minorities, and what little there is, is quite possibly more than functionally offset by overwielding programs such as Affirmative Action. All in all, the race card, and race issue ARE DEAD--except for those with axes to grind or those who remain ideologically mired in ancient (modern) history. We don't live in "a racist society" at present. If anything, we live in one of the least racist societies in the entire history of the world. But will anything less than perfection ever satisfy the Leftists, or those with axes to grind or special interests? Sadly, I think the answer to that question is "no". [/ QUOTE ] This was misconstrued and I was misquoted as saying "racism is DEAD". I'm not going to bother going back right now to find out who the culprit was. So foolish me for having tried to clarify a statement I didn't even make. And someone needs to learn to read a tad better, too. [/ QUOTE ] ...below is your clarification of your original post: [ QUOTE ] By saying racism is largely DEAD in this country today, I don't mean "non-existent"--I mean of so little importance that it doesn't matter much anymore. Of course it still exists. It's just that most Americans aren't racist and the effects of any racism practiced today are negligible in the larger picture. [/ QUOTE ] .......of so little importance to whom? What facts do you have to back up your assertion that 'most' Americans aren't racist? If your statement is simply your opinion, I have no problem with that, as you are entitled to that, but it is only your opinion. If what you're saying is that blatant racism has been greatly reduced in America over the past 50 years, then we are in agreement. I do, however, disagree terming 'negligible' ...."the effects of any racism practiced today" |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
First of all Myrtle, I was misquoted. I didn't even claim "racism is DEAD" in my initial post. Please see my response to Cyrus below titled something about Sklanksky's dogs, so I don't have to repost regarding that. And reread my original post (cited for ease of use in the repoly to Cyrus just mentioned.
Secondly, I disagree with your take that practitioners of racism have gotten much more sophisticated. I haven't observed it much if at all. Thirdly, I'm NOT "tap-dancing around" anything, nor have I been, either in this or any other thread. You are just plain wrong about my motives. I'm NOT playing wordsmithing games. Sorry you seem to have developed such a terribly cynical guess of my mind and heart. Fourthly, I'm NOT goinmg to "silence" anyone who disagrees with me strongly. Jokerswild was a very special case, and Mat supported the banning. So too did some of the most veteran and respected posters on this forum--and they happen to be liberals, by the way. You are really just being WAY too cynical. Sorry; wish I could help with that. |
Re: More fun than Sklansky\'s dogs
[ QUOTE ]
What facts do you have to back up your assertion that 'most' Americans aren't racist? [/ QUOTE ] Personal observation; and obserevation of what today constitute acceptable standards versus 40 years ago; and observation of general themes in media, art and literature. [ QUOTE ] If your statement is simply your opinion, I have no problem with that, as you are entitled to that, but it is only your opinion. [/ QUOTE ] Sure it is but I also think it's likely pretty accurate. [ QUOTE ] If what you're saying is that blatant racism has been greatly reduced in America over the past 50 years, then we are in agreement. [/ QUOTE ] Yes. [ QUOTE ] I do, however, disagree terming 'negligible' ...."the effects of any racism practiced today" [/ QUOTE ] I'm saying I believe the overall effect is fairly negligible today especially when the effects are countered so strongly by programs like Affirmative Action. |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
[ QUOTE ]
First of all Myrtle, I was misquoted. I didn't even claim "racism is DEAD" in my initial post. Please see my response to Cyrus below titled something about Sklanksky's dogs, so I don't have to repost regarding that. And reread my original post (cited for ease of use in the repoly to Cyrus just mentioned. [/ QUOTE ] If you're claiming that racism isn't dead, but just that race issues are dead - that seems even more factually incorrect, given that affirmative action is still a highly pertinent and relevant political topic; not to mention the racial overtones that have permeated much of the discussion regarding the crisis in New Orleans. By the way, I have a hard time believing that you truly feel you've been misquoted, given that you seemed interested in defending the notion that racism is dead: [ QUOTE ] By saying racism is largely DEAD in this country today, I don't mean "non-existent"--I mean of so little importance that it doesn't matter much anymore. Of course it still exists. It's just that most Americans aren't racist and the effects of any racism practiced today are negligible in the larger picture. [/ QUOTE ] |
LIKE IT IS
DVaut1,
By saying the race card is DEAD, I mean it is dead as far as no longer having a real leg to stand on. [ QUOTE ] By the way, I have a hard time believing that you truly feel you're misquoted, given that you seemed interested in defending the notion: [/ QUOTE ] Christ Almighty. I TOOK THE POSTER'S WORD FOR IT THAT THAT WAS WHAT I WROTE. So, I attempted to clarify, in accord with my intended meaning. When you read perhaps 500+ or even 1,000 posts in a day, and make a few posts yourself, it's not that hard to make a mistake on occasion. Do you, DVaut1, remember exactly every single sentence that you wrote, so much that if someone twisted the meaning of one sentence slightly, you would instantly recognize it? And if you think you could, try reading nearly every post written on this forum in the next 48-hr. period and then see if you remain infallible. What's with this crap, anyway? Everyone seems to expect perfection out of me. I'm really getting sick of this. You're definitely one of the nicer ones, but even you pick too many bones over virtually nothing. You know, I've been doing this moderating as a FAVOR to you all, and to 2+2; because I appreciate having this forum as a vehicle for discussion, and because I appreciate some of the posters, and because I appreciate 2+2 overall. In a way it's been a labor of love and I had hoped I could actually help make this forum better. It's a lot of uncompensated work and so far I have gotten far more resistance than assistance. Truth be told, most of the posters on this forum don't deserve to have a moderator (or a forum); and the ones that do, don't need one. You're OK, DVaut1; but half of the new posters and a few of the old ones seem like they should still be in kindergarten. Anyway I'm probably going to have a lot less time for this in the future due to personal work reasons anyway. Maybe as the signal-to-noise ratio here continues to descend, you and some others will realize what a detriment the noise really is. I'll still be around, but less so. Hopefully the quality of posting will take an upturn and the amount of pettiness will take a downturn, but I'm not going to hold my breath. |
Re: The usual \"mistake\" of the Right Wing
[ QUOTE ]
First of all Myrtle, I was misquoted. I didn't even claim "racism is DEAD" in my initial post. Please see my response to Cyrus below titled something about Sklanksky's dogs, so I don't have to repost regarding that. And reread my original post (cited for ease of use in the repoly to Cyrus just mentioned. Well, Cyrus, this isn't the 1950's. There is very little prejudice in America today against minorities, and what little there is, is quite possibly more than functionally offset by overwielding programs such as Affirmative Action. [/ QUOTE ] ...below is your OP from this string.... [ QUOTE ] All in all, the race card, and race issue ARE DEAD--except for those with axes to grind or those who remain ideologically mired in ancient (modern) history. [/ QUOTE ] Are you now saying that it is unreasonable for people to interpret that statement as it has been? [ QUOTE ] We don't live in "a racist society" at present. If anything, we live in one of the least racist societies in the entire history of the world. But will anything less than perfection ever satisfy the Leftists, or those with axes to grind or special interests? Sadly, I think the answer to that question is "no". [/ QUOTE ] ...You make the above statement as if it was an undeniable fact. It is not. And on top of it, you attempt to dilute the specific issue by bringing the politic of the word 'Leftists' into the discussion. Your ideological slip is showing......... [ QUOTE ] Secondly, I disagree with your take that practitioners of racism have gotten much more sophisticated. I haven't observed it much if at all. [/ QUOTE ] No problem with your disagreeing with me, but I have observed that phenomenom. So we must agree to disagree on this point based upon personal observations. [ QUOTE ] Thirdly, I'm NOT "tap-dancing around" anything, nor have I been, either in this or any other thread. You are just plain wrong about my motives. I'm NOT playing wordsmithing games. Sorry you seem to have developed such a terribly cynical guess of my mind and heart. [/ QUOTE ] ......It is my opinion that you are 'tap-dancing, but if I am wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. My guess of your mind and heart come entirely from your posts and actions. You may remember that more than once in our past discussions, I have attempted to gain more insight into exactly those directions, but you have demurred. I will continue to do so. [ QUOTE ] Fourthly, I'm NOT goinmg to "silence" anyone who disagrees with me strongly. Jokerswild was a very special case, and Mat supported the banning. So too did some of the most veteran and respected posters on this forum--and they happen to be liberals, by the way. [/ QUOTE ] ...and here, my friend, is the crux of the issue. The mere idea that anyone should have to rely upon the assurance of one in a censorship position of power distorts the idea of freedom of expression to an arbitrary and artificial level. [ QUOTE ] You are really just being WAY too cynical. Sorry; wish I could help with that. [/ QUOTE ] You call it cynical.....I call it vigilant, and we again disagree, but that is not new..... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Right now it's late & I'm tired....to be continued.... Have a good rest of the night (spoken with earnesty) |
Re: LIKE IT IS
[ QUOTE ]
You know, I've been doing this moderating as a FAVOR to you all, and to 2+2; because I appreciate having this forum as a vehicle for discussion, and because I appreciate some of the posters, and because I appreciate 2+2 overall. In a way it's been a labor of love and I had hoped I could actually help make this forum better. It's a lot of uncompensated work and so far I have gotten far more resistance than assistance. [/ QUOTE ] My last post (in reply to you) had nothing to do with moderating. But, having said that...I've bought well in excess of $100 worth of 2+2 books; so I won't shed many tears for Sklansky & co. There's certainly some posters on other forums here who are doing some uncompensated 'favors' for me, in that I leech off of their free poker advice. Yet I'm not quite sure how many 'favors' 2+2 is doing me by hosting these boards, given that I'm a devoted customer; I assume my constant hits here make this all that much more appealing to potential advertisers and business partners. And there's certainly plenty of other free message boards I could take myself. Putting 2+2 aside, I'm even less certain of how many favors you're doing me. No offense, but I'm convinced this place wouldn't be all that much different without you (you = you in your role as moderator) - given that you admit you haven't really done much of anything, other than ban one poster, who I didn't feel should have been banned in the first place. If you're unhappy with moderating, find some other way to spend your time; but I'm not quite sure how much sympathy I have for you. I'm not particularly concerned with being 'nice'. [ QUOTE ] Truth be told, most of the posters on this forum don't deserve to have a moderator (or a forum); and the ones that do, don't need one. [/ QUOTE ] This seems like you're implicitly arguing that you're not all that needed and are more or less irrelevant; I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. [ QUOTE ] Anyway I'm probably going to have a lot less time for this in the future due to personal work reasons anyway. Maybe as the signal-to-noise ratio here continues to descend, you and some others will realize what a detriment the noise really is. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe; in which case, I think I'll head for greener pastures, not demand more moderation. |
Re: LIKE IT IS
[ QUOTE ]
What's with this crap, anyway? Everyone seems to expect perfection out of me. I'm really getting sick of this. You're definitely one of the nicer ones, but even you pick too many bones over virtually nothing. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think it's crap; You said "the race card and race issues are dead" - then you said you were misquoted (although I disagree, given that you spent a few posts defending the idea that racism is dead); but either way, you're wrong - if you're position is actually that race issues are dead, that's even sillier than claiming racism doesn't exist anymore. We can put aside that silly logic for a moment though; you spent a few posts demanding other posters produce anecdotal evidence (despite the ridiculousness of such a request) - I suppose in some vain attempt to legitimize nonsense (racism is dead, or race issues are dead; whatever you did or didn't say). And when [censored] hits the fan and you get called out for what is patently piss poor logic and a lack of a defense of what you more or less said, you try to get on your high-horse and take the role of an innocent victim. You're not a victim here; if you can't take it, don't dish it, so to speak. I've seen quite a few lectures from you about maturity; I'm not quite sure your leading by example, though. Is it mature to whine about how you're being treated? Even before you were a moderator, you were more than willing to play post-cop and call out others for silliness in their posts; be willing to play by the same rules when your posts descend into crap. It's only fair. I think you're willingness to play the victim in the face of legitimate criticism raises questions about your maturity, and reeks of something awful given your penchant for lecturing others about the same. No one expects perfection; but you spend alot of time being critical of others. So grow up and take it in stride when you're legitimately criticized, too. See? Like I said, I'm not very nice. |
Re: Either way...
My post commented on racism. Black on white and white and black. Both exist. It is part of human nature.
Asking for an example is poor thought process. The presentation of an example does not prove the existence of rampant racism (at least as you define and redefine DEAD) and the lack of a personal example does not prove the absence. I, on the other hand, provided specific examples from our society of racist behaviour. For your benefit I will reiterate the case of the man from India who was killed by someone as an example. Ifurther suggest you look at various posts on this forum recently about behaviour in New Orleans and the causes. My other examples are all equally valid. |
Re: LIKE IT IS
[ QUOTE ]
I've been doing this moderating as a FAVOR to you all, and to 2+2; [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps to 2+2 but dont include me in the "you all". Muddying up threads with discussion of how someone in effect is calling someone an idiot is not conducive to the low signal to noise ratio you aspire to. Better for the more discriminating reader to simple ignore the idiot comment. Of course 2+2 has the right to demand the moderation and the absence of idiot calling. Just admit it that when you responded by redefining the word DEAD you accepted that you likely wrote that or words to that effect. Which of course you did. [ QUOTE ] Everyone seems to expect perfection out of me. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] |
Re: LIKE IT IS
My post was not illogical; as I have explained, I said the race card was dead (as in meaning it has no good merit left to stand on); dead, that is, except for those with axes to grind or who remain mired in the past (as I believe I also wrote there).
So, my post DIDN'T descend into nonsense. [ QUOTE ] See? Like I said, I'm not very nice. [/ QUOTE ] And I had just said about you: [ QUOTE ] You're definitely one of the nicer ones, [/ QUOTE ] So, I guess that means I was wrong, huh? Well then here's a question for you: WHY aren't you nice, then? Not just to me, but to everyone, if that's the case: here, in life, anywhere, everywhere? What the hell is so hard about that anyway? It isn't hard to be nice, you know. Do you think it is hard? Something to think about, at least hopefully. |
Re: LIKE IT IS
[ QUOTE ]
Just admit it that when you responded by redefining the word DEAD you accepted that you likely wrote that or words to that effect. Which of course you did. [/ QUOTE ] Yes I wrote "dead" but not the quote which was attributed to me and which I failed to realize that at the time; those words were put in my mouth, as I showed above. My initial remark had to do with the "race card" not "racism". Anyway, why does nearly everyone on this board feel the need to "win" an argument at any cost? Seriously the maturity level here is no better than junior high school. It's literally unbelievable. |
Re: Either way...
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The presentation of an example does not prove the existence of rampant racism (at least as you define and redefine DEAD) and the lack of a personal example does not prove the absence. [/ QUOTE ] Of course it doesn't PROVE it one way or the other, but it DOES offer some indication as its prevalence or lack thereof. Thus far NOT ONE PERSON has chimed in with a personal example of serious racism they have personally witnessed in recent decades which had a deleterious effect (such as someone not getting hired, or getting fired, or getting beaten up, because of racism). So you can't dismiss that. Just between you, me, and Cyrus we're personally covering at least 100 years of experience in recent decades. Yet not one of us has witnessed such an incident (I'm presuming for you and Cyrus because neither of you piped up with a personal report). Doesn't that at least suggest to you that the prevalence of such incidents is probably really not all that common after all? 100 years experience between and NO INCIDENTS PERSONALLY OBSERVED? Hel, how many Royal Flushes have we personally seen? But not one incident of serious racism with bad effects. I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all but I can't imagine it is ubiquitous either. And neither should you. There are what, 300 million+ persons in this country? Known serious incidents of racism in the last 20 years are how many, who knows? But hundreds of millions of people interacting daily, and only a relative teaspoonful of serious incidents ever make the news. And neither you nor I nor Cyrus have ever seen any. Hell I've seen a couple of tornados, though. Maybe those are more common today than serious racism with significant deleterious effect. |
Enlighten us
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Anyway, why does nearly everyone on this board feel the need to "win" an argument at any cost? [/ QUOTE ] What is your reason? |
Re: Either way...
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So you can't dismiss that. [/ QUOTE ] Actually I can dismiss that. The chances that I would be a victim of an overt racist insult/harm is extremely small. In the high tech circles the racism if any, is non-existent at the lower levels of management and dismissed at higher levels under the guise of qualifications. In any event for you to draw any conclusion, one way or the other, based on inputs or non-inputs from three people shows that you are coming from a place where your mind is made up. Regarding racism, I direct you to the comments of American Airlines from the past (who I believe was a programmer at IBM or something like that) - which I am certain you remember. In the small, relatively well educated, relatively more intelligent community of Poker players those attitudes, proudly stated reflect the FACT that racist attitudes are alive and well. But, if you want to WIN this argument at any cost -- keep arguing. |
Re: LIKE IT IS
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Anyway, why does nearly everyone on this board feel the need to "win" an argument at any cost? Seriously the maturity level here is no better than junior high school. It's literally unbelievable. [/ QUOTE ] Numerous posts trying to let everyone know you didn't say what you really said...and EVERYONE ELSE is consumed with winning... |
Re: LIKE IT IS
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My post was not illogical; as I have explained, I said the race card was dead (as in meaning it has no good merit left to stand on); dead, that is, except for those with axes to grind or who remain mired in the past (as I believe I also wrote there). So, my post DIDN'T descend into nonsense. [/ QUOTE ] 1) How can you say the 'race card' is dead? Did you not accuse leftists of trying to constantly playing the race card? Is not the implication, then, that the race card is alive? 2) You didn't merely say the race card; you said 'race issues' as well...then you went on to reference Affirmative Action, one of the preeminent political issues of the day - clearly race issues are alive, and you're wrong. Look around at the 10 or so posts here dealing with New Orleans and race; do you still stand by your claim that race issues are dead? It was an outlandish claim; And you're never hesistant to point out when others are wrong; so grow up and take it when you give it. |
Re: Either way...
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Of course it doesn't PROVE it one way or the other, but it DOES offer some indication as its prevalence or lack thereof. Thus far NOT ONE PERSON has chimed in with a personal example of serious racism they have personally witnessed in recent decades which had a deleterious effect (such as someone not getting hired, or getting fired, or getting beaten up, because of racism). So you can't dismiss that. [/ QUOTE ] Anecdotal evidence, by it's very nature, is so-called because 'anecdotal' constitutes a complete lack of rigorous analysis. Goodness knows if someoen DID produce anecdotal evidence, it would merely be cast aside as an outlier - and rightfully so! |
Re: Leadership
Most of the discussion to this point has led me to conclude that racism is alive and well -- but more in rhetoric than reality.
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Re: Leadership
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Most of the discussion to this point has led me to conclude that racism is alive and well -- but more in rhetoric than reality. [/ QUOTE ] I think your demand that black leaders (black leaders ESPECIALLY) should condemn looting is an example of how subtle racism permeates society; perhaps only in rhetoric, but it's powerful rhetoric nonetheless. this isn't to say "Sheetwise you're a racist!"...but given just a little thought, I don't think it's hard to conclude how such a demand is racist. Racist = natural differences among people in regards to character and ability due to skin pigmentation; OF COURSE black leaders condemn looting; the only people who question this are people who already have ingrained, negative images of black people; asking black leaders to condemn looting is a subtle (or not-so-subtle) slap in the face; it's saying something along the lines of "society isn't so sure black people oppose looting (based merely on your skin pigment)...will you reassure us?” There is no need for reassurance here; like you and Fishhooks said (although you backtracked on it) – we all KNOW Jesse Jackson doesn’t support looting (at least the violent, taking-non-necessary-items type looting we're referring to here). The request that he especially (or other black leaders) should come out and condemn looting is just requesting that black leaders come out and stage a dog-and-pony show to assuage the concerns of racists. |
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