Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I knew this was coming [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. Luckily I had an answer ready. The intellectual honesty I'm concerned with is more for myself and my thoughts, not for the sake of argument. (That's not to say intellectual honesty isn't also important for argument. It's just not as strict.) So while I disagree with determinism for now, I'll keep an open mind about it.

THEY CAN COEXIST
 

Hey guys. Really enjoying this thread. I actually have a good argument on how both free will and determinism can co-exist. But I'm out the door right now! I will post my thoughts later tonight.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Perhaps we have a misunderstanding on what these words mean. Determinism (fatalism) to me is that we cannot make choices. Everything happens because of what has happened. Everything that does happen MUST happen and could not have not happened. Free will means we can make choices. We can choose between two options; things that happen could have not happenend.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Determinism (fatalism) to me is that we cannot make choices.

[/ QUOTE ]

What ??!! you mean to say that determinism doesn't mean you're very stubborn? No wonder none of your statements made any sense to me.

I'll reread your evidence and logical steps you demonstrated that led you to that belief....

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I realize you are joking; none the less.

2 entries found for fatalism.
fa·tal·ism Audio pronunciation of "fatalism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ftl-zm)
n.

1. The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.
2. Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I was only joking in the sense that you stumbled into a forum for DEBATING/Discussing ideas. That means it's not a matter of proclamation like graffiti or bumper stickers. You will be questioned and expected to logically lay out your evidence and reasoning.

Not that you HAVE to, it's just seems to be the norm. Saying "I believe X" around here means you're about to have your brain opened up and the connections checked. Nobody seems to be granted omniscient status, not even HE.

Now, get over here on this table ! , luckyme.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Determinism is the theory that all events are influenced by past events. And therefore, if you were to choose not to eat the ice cream, it could be because you were not hungry, or you were trying to prove determinism wrong. No matter what, there is something causing you to not eat the ice cream. By not eating the ice cream does not disprove determinism.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP is expressing the viewpoint that there is no free will. She believes all our actions are the result of biological processes which in turn are simply chemical reactions, which in turn are simply molecues behaving in the manner prescribed by physics. Human diliberation is pointless becuase what ever happens will happen according to the law of physics.

If what the OP is expressing is true than it is possible to accurately predict future events if one has enough knowledge about present and past events as well as a complete understanding of the laws of nature that govern our world. For instance it should be possible to predict the weather with 100% accuracy, but we would need to know when the peruvian yak farts, where it farts, in what direction it farts, how forcefull the fart, etc.

LaPlace's demon should be able to accurately predict wether or not I eat the bowl of ice cream. However the rules of the thought experiment present a problem for the demon. If the demon predicts I will eat the bowl of ice cream, I can simply abstain. If the demon predicts I will not eat the bowl of ice cream, I can chow down. The demon knows this before it makes the prediction. It knows that whatever prediction it makes will be wrong. Since the demon cannot lie it cannot make any prediction at all.

Even with all the knowledge and thought power at the demon's disposal, it simply cannot overcome my ability to change my mind.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

The argument is not that it overpowers your mind, but simply knows what your mind will do given all possible situations, and will calculate accordingly.

The best counter-argument to this, by far, IMHO, is the very simple Quantam Physics = you cannot predict the future to 100% degree of accuracy, no matter how much information you have available to you.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
The argument is not that it overpowers your mind, but simply knows what your mind will do given all possible situations, and will calculate accordingly.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the demon knows what my mind will do given this specific situation why can't it make an accurate prediction?

[ QUOTE ]
The best counter-argument to this, by far, IMHO, is the very simple Quantam Physics = you cannot predict the future to 100% degree of accuracy, no matter how much information you have available to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are trying to show that it is impossible to predict the future even if you have complete information. I am trying to show free will exist.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am a fatalist; I do not believe in free will. This is because I feel that my actions are controlled by my brain and my brain in turn is controlled by the laws of physics. There is no room in here for independent action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are your actions really controlled by your brain? Your brain has influence on your actions, but it isn't clear that your brain controls your actions. For instance, if my brain directs my body to leap small buildings, my body will fail to comply. Also, as they say, my brain is often controlled by my penis. (Which is a crude way of denying that I'm some sort of ideal rational actor with a puppet-body controlled by a computer brain.)

Even if my brain has some control over my body, and even if it is at all fair to distinguish between my brain and my body, how exactly does phsyics "control" my brain? Physics is a discipline practiced by physicists. You can't mean that the work of physicists controls my actions. Perhaps what you want to say is that the laws of physics determine what my brain does. The laws of physics are descriptive. They do not have any normative power to control action. What you want to say is that your brain is composed of fundamental particles that act in regular, determined ways. Of course this is an open question given quantum mechanics. But even if our universe is deterministic as you suppose, it doesn't follow that you lack free will.

What would it mean for the universe to be indeterministic? It would mean that to some extent it is impossible IN PRINCIPLE to pretict the future. That is, our ability to predict the cosequences of our actions would be comprimised. As RE Hobart says, indeterminism, rather than granting us free will, actually takes it away, by denying us predictive power.

Try to formulate what you mean by "there is no room for independant action." What practical consequences does this sentence hold? If you consider yourself scientifically-minded, how would you scientifically test this statement? How is it falsifiable? If you cannot do any of these things, how is this belief anything but wasted neurons?

Thinking that you are a puppet controlled by the laws of physics is at best useless. Free will is a lack of power. There is nothing in the laws of physics that denys you the power to make your own choices. There is nothing hindering you from getting out of bed tomorrow or staying in bed, except perhaps fear of getting fired.

Trying to get from a theoretical belief in fatalism or determinism to a practical plan of action is self-defeating. As with extreme skepticism, fatalism offers no rewards for those who subscribe to it. To bend an old example, a skeptic does not pause to consider if the car speeding toward him is real or not; the skeptic just gets out of the way. Similarly, don't ponder whether you have free will or not; just act as if you do. If you don't, then it's not your choice anyways - you'll believe whatever you were fated to.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can you actually? Think about it for a minute. Can you do anything other than what you actually do? What gives you that ability?

We are no different from highly complicated computers / animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it for a minute? Is that an argument? Am I supposed to 'think about' whether I'm really choosing to move my arm in a certain direction, and from that realize that I'm not? Why? I don't get it.

How about this--you tell me before my arm moves which way it will move--up or down. Now, since I have no say in the matter, you should miss on your prediction about half the time. But I think you will find, amazingly, that you are 100% accurate in your predictions. How could that be if I have no choice in which way my arm moves?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
The argument is not that it overpowers your mind, but simply knows what your mind will do given all possible situations, and will calculate accordingly.

The best counter-argument to this, by far, IMHO, is the very simple Quantam Physics = you cannot predict the future to 100% degree of accuracy, no matter how much information you have available to you.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are right than as quantam physics is compatible with determinism it follows that detreminism does not mean you can predict the future.

chez

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am a fatalist; I do not believe in free will. This is because I feel that my actions are controlled by my brain and my brain in turn is controlled by the laws of physics. There is no room in here for independent action.

I also do not believe in the natural value of morality. I do not believe that any actions are in and of themselves inherently right or wrong. While I do in almost all cases act in a moral way (I haven't murdered anyone, for example) I see no real reason to do this.

Because of these beliefs I am ethically off the hock if I kill / rape / steal etc. Not only is it NOT MY CHOICE (because I do not have free will) it's not "wrong" because I don't believe wrong exists.

This seems to me an unsatisfactory solution. What do I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever you do please don't have children. We don't need more people with your strange views.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
This seems to me an unsatisfactory solution. What do I do?

[/ QUOTE ]
Look to the Bible, and turn to God.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The argument is not that it overpowers your mind, but simply knows what your mind will do given all possible situations, and will calculate accordingly.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the demon knows what my mind will do given this specific situation why can't it make an accurate prediction?

[ QUOTE ]
The best counter-argument to this, by far, IMHO, is the very simple Quantam Physics = you cannot predict the future to 100% degree of accuracy, no matter how much information you have available to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are trying to show that it is impossible to predict the future even if you have complete information. I am trying to show free will exist.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]


Whatever the demon predicts, you WILL do.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you actually? Think about it for a minute. Can you do anything other than what you actually do? What gives you that ability?

We are no different from highly complicated computers / animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it for a minute? Is that an argument? Am I supposed to 'think about' whether I'm really choosing to move my arm in a certain direction, and from that realize that I'm not? Why? I don't get it.

How about this--you tell me before my arm moves which way it will move--up or down. Now, since I have no say in the matter, you should miss on your prediction about half the time. But I think you will find, amazingly, that you are 100% accurate in your predictions. How could that be if I have no choice in which way my arm moves?

[/ QUOTE ]


You must be purposely trying to not understand what I am saying. I have no doubt the ILLUSION of free will is present. I certainly APPEAR to make choices every day. You APPEAR to choose which way to move your arm. My problem is that you do not actually CHOOSE in the strictest sense (that is, being able to move it one way or the other).

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

You are living up to your name by calling black white and white black.

"Are your actions really controlled by your brain?"
Yes.

", how exactly does phsyics "control" my brain?"

If you want to split hairs about the words, fine, but I'm not playing.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you actually? Think about it for a minute. Can you do anything other than what you actually do? What gives you that ability?

We are no different from highly complicated computers / animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it for a minute? Is that an argument? Am I supposed to 'think about' whether I'm really choosing to move my arm in a certain direction, and from that realize that I'm not? Why? I don't get it.

How about this--you tell me before my arm moves which way it will move--up or down. Now, since I have no say in the matter, you should miss on your prediction about half the time. But I think you will find, amazingly, that you are 100% accurate in your predictions. How could that be if I have no choice in which way my arm moves?

[/ QUOTE ]


You must be purposely trying to not understand what I am saying. I have no doubt the ILLUSION of free will is present. I certainly APPEAR to make choices every day. You APPEAR to choose which way to move your arm. My problem is that you do not actually CHOOSE in the strictest sense (that is, being able to move it one way or the other).

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand perfectly what you're saying--I know what it means to believe that we do not have free will. I just haven't seen you give any reason for believing it, and when you said 'think about it' it seems to me that thinking about whether or not I can freely choose to move my arm in a certain direction makes it seem very much like I do have free will--as in, "look, I'll move it this way, now this way," etc. So, I don't understand what 'think about it' was supposed to show me. Can you give me a reason for believing that we do not have free will then?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I haven't read this long thread yet, but let me first agree with you. I don't believe in free will either. I believe in free "agency" -- meaning that I am responsible for my own actions. However, my will is not free. It is a product of a lot of things -- genetics, biology, environment. In the end, I cannot control my brain, because "I" am an emergent property of my brain. Freewill is an illusion -- but a very handy one. Now, on to how this matters:

[ QUOTE ]
Because of these beliefs I am ethically off the hock if I kill / rape / steal etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are only off the hook, in that there is no "you" apart from your functioning brain. Un/fortunately, society will do things to either change your brain, or keep it from hurting their brains. So, you should use your free agency to try to adapt your brain in such a way so that soceity doesn't think they need to adapt your brain for you (or lock it up, or destroy it).

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever the demon predicts, you WILL do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I don't do what the demon predicts, does that mean I have free will?

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever the demon predicts, you WILL do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I don't do what the demon predicts, does that mean I have free will?

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you were privy to the demon's prediction and that would influence your behavior, then yes.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

If you wish to be simply factually incorrect, that is your right.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) prove that determinism exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to know what you will do in the future, just go to the appropriate point in space-time and see. Whatever you do, is what you were always destined to do. There is nothing you could possibly have done to change this.

The universe is its own model. A list of everything that has is and will happen. To see the future just go look it’s as simple as that.

However I should add that its my belief that its impossible to improve on this. To be able to predict the future with 100% accurately before hand is not possible, at least not without in effect reconstructing the whole universe, but I do not that believe that a being can achieve this either directly or indirectly.

LaPlace's Demon cannot be shown to exist, so his argument disappears in a puff of smoke.

[ QUOTE ]
2) illustrate free will without determinism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Free will exists at the level of human experience. If we construct a model of the universe to examine the details of interpersonal behaviour of humans, it makes sense to include the assumption of free will into the model. This does not mean we believe that the assumption of free will is a true and accurate reflection of reality. It just means that the assumption of free will is useful for our current purposes.

When we create models of the universe, we do it to achieve certain ends and it is those ends that are important. It is perfectly acceptable to make assumptions known to be false if they make the ends easier to achieve.

Consider the large amount of our current technology base that has been developed using principles of Newtonian mechanics. People, who firmly believe that the assumptions of Newtonian Mechanics are wrong, still use the theory successfully.

We can only reason within the models we create. It is impossible for us to accurately model the universe. It makes sense to construct the models we reason within to reflect practical needs rather than impossible fantasies.

It is very useful to assume humans have free will, irrespective of whether they do or not.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Free will exists at the level of human experience. If we construct a model of the universe to examine the details of interpersonal behaviour of humans, it makes sense to include the assumption of free will into the model. This does not mean we believe that the assumption of free will is a true and accurate reflection of reality. It just means that the assumption of free will is useful for our current purposes.

When we create models of the universe, we do it to achieve certain ends and it is those ends that are important. It is perfectly acceptable to make assumptions known to be false if they make the ends easier to achieve.
...
It is very useful to assume humans have free will, irrespective of whether they do or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is useful, but not necessary. It's just as good of a model (if not better, actually), to have physiological & environmental factors determine people's behavior. We can still alter people's behavior by changing their physiology (medication, education) or environment (rehab, prison).

It also helps in realizing the importance that people are raised in healthy environments that promote good behavior. We can't just hope that once a kid grows up and leaves a very bad environment, that their free-will will be able to choose to behave appropriately in society.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you were privy to the demon's prediction and that would influence your behavior, then yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would that matter if my action was already determined at the big bang?

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless you were privy to the demon's prediction and that would influence your behavior, then yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would that matter if my action was already determined at the big bang?

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Your knowledge of the demon's prediction would also be the result of prior events.


edit: removed an incorrect statement about Pierre-Simon Laplace. (Heh, I still learn something every now and then)

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Laplace's Demon knows all the facts about the past and present and all the natural laws that govern our world, and uses this knowledge to foresee the future, down to every detail.

LaPlace's Demon never lies.

LaPlace's Demon says to you, "I know you are going to eat this bowl of ice cream".

[/ QUOTE ] If you are not going to eat the ice cream, at least one of these three premises has to be false. It could just as well be the second or third as the first. All you have done is set up a scenario with premises that contradict each other. Doesn't prove anything.

(Does the demon have the ability to shut up?)

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
All you have done is set up a scenario with premises that contradict each other. Doesn't prove anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more of a paradox than a contradiction. But not even a very good paradox -- the demon can accurately predict your action by not letting you know what it is. Then, after you act, he can show you he was right.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's more of a paradox than a contradiction. But not even a very good paradox -- the demon can accurately predict your action by not letting you know what it is. Then, after you act, he can show you he was right.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes he can. That would mean premise 3 is false. All four premises cannot logically be true at once:

He can predict the future 100% accurately.
He doesn't lie.
He tells you what you are going to do.
You act differently.

You say he can refrain from telling you what you're going to do, and the contradiction is gone. You are correct. Remove premise nr. 3, or any other one of the four premises above, and the scenario is no longer impossible and does no longer claim to tell us anything about fatalism.

edit:

(If you remove nr. 3, you will also remove nr. 4, because there will be no statement to differ from. In case that confused someone.)

(And English is not my first language. You might very well be correct that contradiction is not a good word in this context.)

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes he can. That would mean premise 3 is false. All four premises cannot logically be true at once:


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously one of the premises has to be false. I'm saying premise 1 is false because fatalism is false.

If my fate was set at the big bang, why should it matter that the demon tells me what I am going to do. Fatalism holds that I must do what I am fated to do. It only matters if the demon cannot accurately predict the future. However fatalism(or determinism for that matter) says the demon must be able to predict the future. The reason fatalism falls down here is becuase of free will.

You people need to watch the Matrix trilogy again.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously one of the premises has to be false. I'm saying premise 1 is false because fatalism is false.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, but your statement boils down to "fatalism is false". There is no reason why the premise that he doesn't lie can't be the false one. Or the premise that he tells you anything at all.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you are not going to eat the ice cream, at least one of these three premises has to be false. It could just as well be the second or third as the first. All you have done is set up a scenario with premises that contradict each other. Doesn't prove anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought experiments never prove anything. They are just an excercise to clarify what is already intuitive. Its my position that premise 1 has the highest probability of being false(however fatalism says it must be true).

Think about the thought experiment this way. Suppose you know with absolute certainty that premise 2 and premise 3 are true. Which is more likely to be true

A)I can act differently than the demon predicts.

or

B)My freewill prevents the demon from actually being able to predict the future give the constraints of this senario.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Think about the thought experiment this way. Suppose you know with absolute certainty that premise 2 and premise 3 are true. Which is more likely to be true

A)I can act differently than the demon predicts.

or

B)My freewill prevents the demon from actually being able to predict the future give the constraints of this senario.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]
If we knew with absolute certainty that premise 2 and 3 were true, I would say what is most likely to be false is the first part of premise 1. Premise one is divided in two parts:

The demon knows everything about the present and the past.
Therefore it must know everything about the future.

But I suppose you also postulate that I know the first part of statement one with absolute certainty, and your question is "what is more likely to be false: the second part of premise one or premise four". You see how you are just as well off just stating that it is intuitively true for you that you have free will, than to call this far fetched scenario a refutation of determinism?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously one of the premises has to be false. I'm saying premise 1 is false because fatalism is false.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had no idea you seriously thought this thought experiment disproved determinism/fatalism. Here, I have one for you:

1) I create a computer program that prompts you to choose either "0" or "1" to predict what # the computer will next print on the screen.
2) If you predict correctly (by entering the # into the computer), you win $1million.
3) The computer will print the inverse of whatever you enter ("1" if you enter "0", and "0" if you enter "1") [and you know this].
4) You are unable to enter the predition of the # the computer is next printing on the screen.

Conclusion: the computer has free will, because you can't enter the prediction of what # it will pick, even though you know the exact rule it is using to pick the #.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Yes, yes. Good one.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
LaPlace's Demon says to you, "I know you are going to eat this bowl of ice cream".

If you could eat that bowl of ice cream but decide not to then determinism is false.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you built a robot that was programmed to do the opposite of what the demon said, is it your position that the robot would have free will? Is it your position that the robot's behavior is not governed by a set of deterministic laws?

If that is not your position, please explain why your argument in favor of free will applies to humans but not to robots.

I actually thought of your exact argument a few months ago and had briefly changed my mind into thinking that free will exists, but a friend set me straight. The demon cannot exist as specified. It is similar to why the halting problem cannot be solved.


Z

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
So if you built a robot that was programmed to do the opposite of what the demon said, is it your position that the robot would have free will? Is it your position that the robot's behavior is not governed by a set of deterministic laws?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot prove man has free will although I suspect it exist. I believe there is a cause for every action. That being said I do not believe my actions are predetermined or a matter of fate. Human deliberation matters.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot prove man has free will although I suspect it exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. It certainly does feel like free will exists, although I suspect it doesn't. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But from where I stand, the illusion of free will is just as good as having it, so I'm not going to lose any (more) sleep over it.

Z

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Conclusion: the computer has free will, because you can't enter the prediction of what # it will pick, even though you know the exact rule it is using to pick the #.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know I would not even bother to play such a game against the computer becuase it would be a complete waste of time. However against Bill Gates I might play a few rounds.

The difference between a man and robot is that a man can let the demon be right.

According to Wikipedia

Determinism in the West is often associated with Newtonian physics, which depicts the physical matter of the universe as operating according to a set of fixed, knowable laws. The "billiard ball" hypothesis, a product of Newtonian physics, argues that once the initial conditions of the universe have been established the rest of the history of the universe follows inevitably. If it were actually possible to have complete knowledge of physical matter and all of the laws governing that matter at any one time, then it would be theoretically possible to compute the time and place of every event that will ever occur (Laplace's demon). In this sense, the basic particles of the universe operate in the same fashion as the rolling balls on a billiard table, moving and striking each other in predictable ways to produce predictable results.

I believe all actions follow to a degree deterministic laws, but I wholeheartly reject this view of determinism. If this veiw was correct nothing could prevent the demon from making an accurate prediction(including the stringent constraints of the thought experiment).

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this veiw was correct nothing could prevent the demon from making an accurate prediction(including the stringent constraints of the thought experiment).

[/ QUOTE ]

What prevents you from accurately predicting the # the computer will print on the screen? Free will?

The fact is, the demon CAN predict what you will do -- it's just that by telling you in advance of your action, he is adding another cause into the equation. Just like entering a # into my computer program adds a cause in determining what # is printed on the screen.

I don't believe in fatalism, by the way. I think QM makes it impossible to accurately predict outcomes, but you can still accurately predict probabilities, as well as know exactly which variables would tip the scales even more in favor of whatever outcome you wanted.