Re: Getting desperate for help
 

[ QUOTE ]
What bothers me about all of this is why someone who plays the same game for ages can not know without a shadow of a doubt what the problem is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Results oriented? You can win with your mistakes and lose with your good plays a lot in the short term, and this can [censored] with your head at the worst times.

Re: Getting desperate for help
 

My problem is that when I review the session I think I'm playing the same way I always have, and that I'm getting some bad breaks. Mathematics would suggest otherwise, hence the post.

When I review poker tracker numbers my pre-flop play is virtually unchanged, but I believe I have become more passive post flop. WHen you get 3 bet pre-flop seemingly every time I think that's what happens, and I've become gun shy.

Re: Getting desperate for help
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing the same way I always have

[/ QUOTE ]

DING DING DING. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but clearly you're not getting it. You're game has always been very weak when compared to most 2+2 15/30 players. My guess is the play was so aweful so you made quite a bit of money, but ultimately ran better than you should have. I could be wrong, but honestly I can't imagine you being anywhere near a 2bb/100 winner.

[ QUOTE ]

When I review poker tracker numbers my pre-flop play is virtually unchanged, but I believe I have become more passive post flop. WHen you get 3 bet pre-flop seemingly every time I think that's what happens, and I've become gun shy.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh...Cap it? People are recognizing and pushing you around. Change your screen names and start capping more vs these clowns.

Re: Getting desperate for help
 

when you are playing bad you don't realize you're playing bad

Re: Getting desperate for help
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nice to have ya back.

I've missed the jester avatar.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I'm working to much to post a lot, but I do pop in from time to time.

Re: Getting desperate for help
 

[ QUOTE ]
This better not be some "haha, April Fools! I'm rich as hell!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been laughing for days because of this quote right here... People are starting to think I am on crack because I think of this and just bust out laughing when it isn't really appropriate...


Ok Anyways..lets recap.. I am a big davidross fan.. but david hasn't really had "Months" of success at 15/30... He started towards the end of last year and I am sure put in a few zillion hands before his downswing, but not "months".

He's had an insane downswing. He's come back from it. He's breakeven for 4 months after a 600BB downswing. Thats not too shabby.

Oh and he's "breakeven" except for the $20K of tourney wins in that period.

April Fools! He's Rich as Hell!

Re: Getting desperate for help
 

From the posts it's clear that there are several facets of your game that you need to work on. Overall, though, you have every reason to be confident. First of all, you won 170k in the last year of so. Not many posters much less non 2+2ers are making that sort of money. Second, you have a lot of balls to be posting this "getting desperate" stuff and subjecting yourself to this sort of flack. Clearly, you have a willingness to learn and an openness that will benefit your game.

The truth is that you haven't been playing that long (although you have played a lot of hands). When you've been playing for many years and have successfully overcome the inevitable swings repeatedly, you'll develop the confidence that you should have and need to have to deal with the downturns.

I wouldn't take a break. It'll just cost you money. As for the criticism, it's a blessing. I'm impressed by the willingness of your colleagues to help you out here, since the reality is that most are your competitors. I'm thinking of starting to post hands myself because I'm in the midst of a .82 BB/100 slump for 25k hands at 10/20 6 max and 15/30. I'm not sure, though, that I can handle the heat in the way that you do.

Re: Getting desperate for help
 

[ QUOTE ]
What bothers me about all of this is why someone who plays the same game for ages can not know without a shadow of a doubt what the problem is. If I had been selling - oh, anything, cars - successfully and then things dried up I would surely know if it was the model becoming unfashionable, the competition down the road, the image of the company...

[/ QUOTE ]
If only this were so easy. Just like large corporations need management consultants to tell them why things aren't going the way they should, poker players sometimes need an objective evaluation from others to tell them what they're doing wrong. The game -- both in business and in poker -- is not static. It evolves, and if you don't keep up with it, you get left behind. In David's case, I think he just became complacent, and I'm guessing this happened a long time ago.

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
pm me your AIM name and i'll play w/ you tonight (at your tables) & scout a game or two for us. when we are not in hands together tell me what you have & i'll watch you play.


[/ QUOTE ]

WTF ?

Is this normal practice for you? Yes, I am a coward that did not feel like using my real name. This comment surprised me so much that it was worth creating the alternate name. Why sit at same table? Coach over IM is ok, but don't play in same game. That's a ridiculous solution to be suggesting with all these new posters around here that don't know any better and will use your method.

I ask again. Is this common for you to be at same table as someone you are chatting with on IM?

Re: PM me
 

Given that party says they take screenscrapes, or at least are capable of screenscrapes, i would be very careful about chatting on aim with players at the same table.

-Brad

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pm me your AIM name and i'll play w/ you tonight (at your tables) & scout a game or two for us. when we are not in hands together tell me what you have & i'll watch you play.


[/ QUOTE ]

WTF ?

Is this normal practice for you? Yes, I am a coward that did not feel like using my real name. This comment surprised me so much that it was worth creating the alternate name. Why sit at same table? Coach over IM is ok, but don't play in same game. That's a ridiculous solution to be suggesting with all these new posters around here that don't know any better and will use your method.

I ask again. Is this common for you to be at same table as someone you are chatting with on IM?

[/ QUOTE ]

no its not.

i do talk on im while playing and discuss hands. i was suggesting that DR be playing w/ me on IM watching. that is all.

-Barron

Re: PM me
 

Oh how I dream of Party having a capable security team someday.

I would be beyond shocked if anyone was caught cheating using IM because of screen scrapes.

Re: PM me
 

What is a screenscrape?

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would be beyond shocked if anyone was caught cheating using IM because of screen scrapes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, but I wouldnt want to be the first accused of it, even if i didnt actually do anything wrong.

-Brad

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is a screenscrape?

[/ QUOTE ]

They can take screenshots of your desktop while pp software is running. My understanding is that it is primarily used to identify bot programs w/ graphical interfaces. I dont think they randomly take screenscrapes but I also would keep the hardcoregermanonasiangaypornography browsing to a minimum while playing.

-Brad

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
but I also would keep the hardcoregermanonasiangaypornography browsing to a minimum while playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh. I just closed 3 windows really quick. You didn't see did you? Did anyone see? OMG I am never, never looking at that stuff again. Really I promise...

Re: PM me
 

That's a ridiculous solution to be suggesting with all these new posters around here that don't know any better and will use your method.

POTD

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pm me your AIM name and i'll play w/ you tonight (at your tables) & scout a game or two for us. when we are not in hands together tell me what you have & i'll watch you play.


[/ QUOTE ]

WTF ?

Is this normal practice for you? Yes, I am a coward that did not feel like using my real name. This comment surprised me so much that it was worth creating the alternate name. Why sit at same table? Coach over IM is ok, but don't play in same game. That's a ridiculous solution to be suggesting with all these new posters around here that don't know any better and will use your method.

I ask again. Is this common for you to be at same table as someone you are chatting with on IM?

[/ QUOTE ]

no its not.

i do talk on im while playing and discuss hands. i was suggesting that DR be playing w/ me on IM watching. that is all.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you weren't going to be on the same tables, but you were going to be in hands together? Come on, man.

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's a ridiculous solution to be suggesting with all these new posters around here that don't know any better and will use your method.

POTD

[/ QUOTE ]

this is why i responded as quickly as i did.

i should make the point again by saying doing ANYTHING other than studying that could be construed as cheating in order to increase your edge is flat out wrong.

this was meant to help DR, not somehow team up and take on a table like is being suggested. NOR would i ever comment on a hand while in progress.

after the hand, we can both look at the hand history and go over why he did one thing vs. another.

here's an example...while playing 30/60 on one table i recounted a hand to a friend on IM. he came and saw the table, saw the players that i IM'd him the hand history and agreed i played a hand wrong. my question was, "what was the size of my mistake"...the ensuing discussion was rewarding and allowed me to get a different perspective on my play. this grounding helps keep your head in the game.

this is what i am suggesting here.

if that is wrong, tell me now and i'll stop 100%. i would never want to do anything unethical by any stretch of the imagination. why would i work so hard at this game to improve myself and then go do something stupid like cheat?? answer: i wouldn't. i use these boards and conversations with good players, pokertracker, and playerview to increase my win rate.

so if there is a legitmate problem with the description given above, please let me know...if not on the board, then by pm.

-Barron

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's a ridiculous solution to be suggesting with all these new posters around here that don't know any better and will use your method.

POTD

[/ QUOTE ]

this is why i responded as quickly as i did.

i should make the point again by saying doing ANYTHING other than studying that could be construed as cheating in order to increase your edge is flat out wrong.

this was meant to help DR, not somehow team up and take on a table like is being suggested. NOR would i ever comment on a hand while in progress.

after the hand, we can both look at the hand history and go over why he did one thing vs. another.

here's an example...while playing 30/60 on one table i recounted a hand to a friend on IM. he came and saw the table, saw the players that i IM'd him the hand history and agreed i played a hand wrong. my question was, "what was the size of my mistake"...the ensuing discussion was rewarding and allowed me to get a different perspective on my play. this grounding helps keep your head in the game.

this is what i am suggesting here.

if that is wrong, tell me now and i'll stop 100%. i would never want to do anything unethical by any stretch of the imagination. why would i work so hard at this game to improve myself and then go do something stupid like cheat?? answer: i wouldn't. i use these boards and conversations with good players, pokertracker, and playerview to increase my win rate.

so if there is a legitmate problem with the description given above, please let me know...if not on the board, then by pm.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

There is obviosly nothing wrong with this.

I play at the same tables as friends occasionally and I see nothing wrong with the person still in the hand telling the other what they have once the other person has folded.

Re: PM me
 

Sh1t. I talk to tons of people while at the same tables. We often tell our hands AFTER the other has folded. It's fun sweating...i dunno. But when we're both in a hand together it's balls to the wall full game without any correspondance.

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sh1t. I talk to tons of people while at the same tables. We often tell our hands AFTER the other has folded. It's fun sweating...i dunno. But when we're both in a hand together it's balls to the wall full game without any correspondance.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is just plain collusion if you tell him your cards before the hand is played out!

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sh1t. I talk to tons of people while at the same tables. We often tell our hands AFTER the other has folded. It's fun sweating...i dunno. But when we're both in a hand together it's balls to the wall full game without any correspondance.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is just plain collusion if you tell him your cards before the hand is played out!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it collusion if you're playing live and you fold and the guy to your left throws in a raise then taps you on your shoulder and prods you to have a peak at his cards?

BK isn't saying that player A folds, then tells player B who still has a hand "I had K3!"

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sh1t. I talk to tons of people while at the same tables. We often tell our hands AFTER the other has folded. It's fun sweating...i dunno. But when we're both in a hand together it's balls to the wall full game without any correspondance.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is just plain collusion if you tell him your cards before the hand is played out!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it collusion if you're playing live and you fold and the guy to your left throws in a raise then taps you on your shoulder and prods you to have a peak at his cards?

BK isn't saying that player A folds, then tells player B who still has a hand "I had K3!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if I misunderstood; he doesn't really specify if it is the folded or the live hand they'd discuss.

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sh1t. I talk to tons of people while at the same tables. We often tell our hands AFTER the other has folded. It's fun sweating...i dunno. But when we're both in a hand together it's balls to the wall full game without any correspondance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sh1t. I talk to tons of people while at the same tables. We often tell our hands AFTER the other has folded. It's fun sweating...i dunno. But when we're both in a hand together it's balls to the wall full game without any correspondance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is exactly what i was referring to...bk is better at stating it than i

-Barron

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pm me your AIM name and i'll play w/ you tonight (at your tables) & scout a game or two for us. when we are not in hands together tell me what you have & i'll watch you play.


[/ QUOTE ]

WTF ?

Is this normal practice for you? Yes, I am a coward that did not feel like using my real name. This comment surprised me so much that it was worth creating the alternate name. Why sit at same table? Coach over IM is ok, but don't play in same game. That's a ridiculous solution to be suggesting with all these new posters around here that don't know any better and will use your method.

I ask again. Is this common for you to be at same table as someone you are chatting with on IM?

[/ QUOTE ]

no its not.

i do talk on im while playing and discuss hands. i was suggesting that DR be playing w/ me on IM watching. that is all.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you weren't going to be on the same tables, but you were going to be in hands together? Come on, man.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing wrong with this El D.

-Barron

Re: PM me
 

It would be a very small step to mention to the guy with a king high flush that the ace was folded. Why even put yourself in such a tempting position?

Live this can't really happen without prearranged signals or some such.

Further clarification
 

Just to clarify further: the guy with the hand still in play can tell the guy who folded but the guy who folded can't tell the guy still in play. That way there is no knowing that your K high flush is the nuts because the A was folded PF.

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pm me your AIM name and i'll play w/ you tonight (at your tables) & scout a game or two for us. when we are not in hands together tell me what you have & i'll watch you play.


[/ QUOTE ]

WTF ?

Is this normal practice for you? Yes, I am a coward that did not feel like using my real name. This comment surprised me so much that it was worth creating the alternate name. Why sit at same table? Coach over IM is ok, but don't play in same game. That's a ridiculous solution to be suggesting with all these new posters around here that don't know any better and will use your method.

I ask again. Is this common for you to be at same table as someone you are chatting with on IM?

[/ QUOTE ]

no its not.

i do talk on im while playing and discuss hands. i was suggesting that DR be playing w/ me on IM watching. that is all.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you weren't going to be on the same tables, but you were going to be in hands together? Come on, man.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing wrong with this El D.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, let me clarify. Here is why you sound shady to me in this exchange.

In the first quoted post here, it is clear that you are planning to play at the same table as dross. Then, after the other guy questions that, you reply to him implying that you weren't planning to be at the same table.

To me, this backpedaling makes your whole plan, which I had no problem with initially, sound shady. That's all.

Re: PM me
 

not going to make any friends like this but I'll just say I don't trust 2 players with IM communicating and sitting at the same table (and I know of a few 2+2 who actively do it). Doesn't matter how you deny it, I know you'll be privy to some info others are not and temptation without repurcussions (sp) is a very slippery slope.

Re: Further clarification
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify further: the guy with the hand still in play can tell the guy who folded but the guy who folded can't tell the guy still in play. That way there is no knowing that your K high flush is the nuts because the A was folded PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

Re: Further clarification
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify further: the guy with the hand still in play can tell the guy who folded but the guy who folded can't tell the guy still in play. That way there is no knowing that your K high flush is the nuts because the A was folded PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. No problem there, and live, no confusion there. Where the confusion begins is that there is no way of knowing exactly what is being discussed when the hand is played out online. I have no doubt that BK, Dcfr, NLS, and others on 2+2 do not cross the bounds of ethical discussion during play but, this being a public forum available to all who wish to read it, it is essential that it be clearly stated what is and is not ethical and acceptable discussion during the play of a hand if discussion during the play of a hand is to be discussed at all.

-Brad

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sh1t. I talk to tons of people while at the same tables. We often tell our hands AFTER the other has folded. It's fun sweating...i dunno. But when we're both in a hand together it's balls to the wall full game without any correspondance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you ever give advice to each other while in a hand? You've mentioned in the past IMing each other about juicy higher-limit games w/ big fish to jump into together. In those scenarios, when not in a hand together, are you talking about hands during play?

Specifically, bk, I am wondering if you would ever do something like this: Schneids folds preflop. You bet the river and get raised - might you ever ask "yo schneids, does this clown ever bluff raise?"

Re: Further clarification
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify further: the guy with the hand still in play can tell the guy who folded but the guy who folded can't tell the guy still in play. That way there is no knowing that your K high flush is the nuts because the A was folded PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. No problem there, and live, no confusion there. Where the confusion begins is that there is no way of knowing exactly what is being discussed when the hand is played out online. I have no doubt that BK, Dcfr, NLS, and others on 2+2 do not cross the bounds of ethical discussion during play but, this being a public forum available to all who wish to read it, it is essential that it be clearly stated what is and is not ethical and acceptable discussion during the play of a hand if discussion during the play of a hand is to be discussed at all.

-Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

this was the point i saw R U serious make to which i responded in a (i see now) "shady" manner.

the mere appearance of impropriety is bad for everybody.

id rather have just ended this discussion then and there because the more attention paid to it, the more it seems so controversial. i see nothing wrong with it but at the same time wante dto assuade those who could take it the wrong way.

so for that i publicly apologize. i was0 not properly considering the affect of the secondary reply on the primary statement. el d is right, it does look shady and weak.

and to those who think its a "slippery slope," if you draw a line and never cross it its a cliff. period. if you have morals for the integrity of the game it isn't even a question.

-Barron

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sh1t. I talk to tons of people while at the same tables. We often tell our hands AFTER the other has folded. It's fun sweating...i dunno. But when we're both in a hand together it's balls to the wall full game without any correspondance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you ever give advice to each other while in a hand? You've mentioned in the past IMing each other about juicy higher-limit games w/ big fish to jump into together. In those scenarios, when not in a hand together, are you talking about hands during play?

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely not! no advice during hand. no comments on play. nothing that would alter a players decision to act or actions based on available information.

-Barron

Re: Further clarification
 

TimM: It would be a very small step to mention to the guy with a king high flush that the ace was folded. Why even put yourself in such a tempting position?

NLfool: not going to make any friends like this but I'll just say I don't trust 2 players with IM communicating and sitting at the same table (and I know of a few 2+2 who actively do it). Doesn't matter how you deny it, I know you'll be privy to some info others are not and temptation without repurcussions (sp) is a very slippery slope.

El Diablo: Specifically, bk, I am wondering if you would ever do something like this: Schneids folds preflop. You bet the river and get raised - might you ever ask "yo schneids, does this clown ever bluff raise?"

I don't think anyone here thinks you, personally, talk to other players with the explicit intention of cheating or colluding. (You wouldn't have suggested the method to davidross in a public forum, for a start.)

However, for someone with high morals, (DcifrThr: and to those who think its a "slippery slope," if you draw a line and never cross it its a cliff. period. if you have morals for the integrity of the game it isn't even a question.), I have to assume you must understand why the above posters have stated their serious concerns. They don't think you are colluding, but they are worried you might collude accidentally or by unintentional inference.

You asked earlier if you should stop talking secretly with other players in the game. If after reading and digesting this thread you do choose to stop talking secretly to other players, and announce it here, I suspect you will gain a great deal more respect as a faultlessly upright player.

Please chat to your friends, or post hands to these boards, after the game.

Re: PM me
 

[ QUOTE ]
(and I know of a few 2+2 who actively do it).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a problem.

Do you think this is more common or less common than most would think?

I am unimpressed with any poster that has an open IM window with someone he is sitting with. I want to know how prevalent this is because I am starting to think that some of the people I have looked up to as great players are nothing more than cheats gaining a small edge via soft collusion.

Re: PM me
 

There are probably 10 poker players I frequently IM with while I play online. Sometimes we end up at the same table, but not on purpose. We never tell each other our cards before a hand is over.

Re: PM me
 

"I am unimpressed with any poster that has an open IM window with someone he is sitting with. I want to know how prevalent this is because I am starting to think that some of the people I have looked up to as great players are nothing more than cheats gaining a small edge via soft collusion."

A lot of 2+2ers multitable the same games as their friends.

A lot of 2+2ers talk to their friends on aim.

A lot of 2+2ers have friends that are also 2+2ers.

There are a finite number of online poker tables.

Therefore, it only makes sense that some 2+2ers are highly likely to be playing at the same tables as friends/other 2+2ers that they happen to have aim conversations going with. This does not mean they are cheating. I think you are overreacting.

FWIW-I personally have about 25 2+2ers on my buddy list. I rarely end up at the same tables as them because I play mostly shorthanded and many of them play full, but it does happen occasionally and I don't see it as an issue whatsoever. If I played party 15 full it would probably happen far more often and I still don't think it would be an issue.