Re: can you get away from KK?
 

I've been thinking of this situation alot latley. In the past 3 days of nl cash games i've had KK 6 times, 5 of those I was up against AA, no joke. So now I say call and hope an A flops so you can get out.

I do think i agree with the call and get allin if an A doesn't flop, in a cash game this is probably more profitable. although if you think he must have a big pair pushing is prob better, since you may get bluffed or no action with an A flop or K. In a tourney i think best to push to get him to fold AK or AQ, it is always better to not risk any out draw.

Re: similar hand from WSOP
 

Very interesting, I had nearly exactly the same hand in the WSOP this year. Money is slightly deeper than your game (25/50 blinds with 10000 chips, so about 200 BB in play instead of 100).

On the fourth hand of the tournament, I get KK on the button against two MP limpers. I make it 350, and the small blind makes it 2000. Folded back to me. I think for about 2 minutes and decide to call. Flop is J9x with a two flush (if I remember correctly). He goes all-in for the remaining 7850 or so. I think for about 4 minutes (with the ESPN cameras hovering over the table hoping to film the first player eliminated from the tourney!), and fold. He shows me his aces.

Being mostly an online player, I am not usually going to put a lot of trust in my ability to read live NL games. But in this case, there were overwhelming indicators that he had aces. First off, his hands and lips were both trembling. Secondly, and maybe more importantly, I had a short conversation with him pre-tournament and learned that he was from Columbus, OH and got a sense that he was a "thrilled to just be here"-type (I guess that made two of us), making him unlikely to go out on the fourth hand with less than a monster.

I am pretty happy in retrospect with both of these decisions. My logic for the preflop call goes like this: It costs me additional 1650. With best-case implied odds, there is about 10500 to be gained in dead money plus his stack. This nearly justifies the call itself; but there are several factors cutting down those odds. The AKx flop presents a decision whether to proceed, an ace (or a straight or a flush) can hit on the turn or river, and there may be some outside chance that he is able to make a monster laydown. On the other hand though, if he has less than AA I may be able to squeeze some equity out of the pot.

I doubt I would bet the flop if checked to. In fact, I would have to see how it went, but my early inclination is to check it all the way to the river and then maybe make a thin value bet on the end.

In an online game, however, I am definitely going in with this hand, most likely preflop. Way too many people out there who will push JJ and QQ that far).

Re: similar hand from WSOP
 

Congrats on the great laydown and info.
How did the rest of the WSOP go?

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

I have seen more or less that same situation many times and can tell that one must take pocket aces into serious consideration. I would have tried to make it possible for me to get out of the hand, while at a tournament I might have mucked it. It's not hard to get rid of pocket kings as there are only two kings left in the deck and the big replays are often done with the two biggest pairs. The type of oppponent you figured to be against might make it difficult (but sure not impossible) to fold pocket kings. I have folded pocket kings even at limit games vs. a too likely pocket aces, and here you put was it $200 there to protect $8 or so.

Of course, it depends...
 

Just tonight 2 situations came up where i had KK

1. I make my standard 4xbb raise, 1 caller, LP raises pot, i put him all in 2xpot with KK. He pays me off with 99.

2. I limp from EP for change of pace, all fold around to button call, SB 4xraise, i smoothcall so does button. I catch trip K check and they puts me all in so i triple up. They show 88 and AT [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

It all depends on what your opponents are likely to have, and in my experience (Party 25NL and 20-2 sngs), they will raise/call with wacky stuff -- so play KK to get most money in and once in a while tip your hat to AA.

The advice on here is geared for good players playing vs. good players, but I play against bad players -- so you can value bet more.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

You are saying you could fold KK where you raised on the button to a reraise from the SB?
There is no way to put him on AA at that point.
Are you only reraising with AA if you are him?

I agree that pushing in there was not the right play. But it is inconceivable to assume he has AA. I thought it was possible, but he makes the same play with QQ, AK, etc. It was a button raise.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

Cool, we needed another bitter, angry table coach.

Glad you came along.

Re: can you get away from KK?
 

I reckon you're still doomed if the flop has no scare cards.

ie. I can't see either player either making a laydown or not betting a huge stack.

Re: OK
 

"Also, I am more of a tourney player, so really not used to playing long with 100x the BB. At 40 on down, you are getting allin if you can with KK."

Try to find that thread I mentioned that Slansky started, Slansky suggests that in a touranemnt situation here, with lower stacks you still just flat call preflop.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I am more of a tourney player, so really not used to playing long with 100x the BB. At 40 on down, you are getting allin if you can with KK.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. one reason many cash players play poorly in tourneys and vice versa, is these situations where you are that short stacked (40x) just never come up, because you can rebuy. I can't remember the last time I've had 40x the BB to play with.

--turnipmonster