Re: You are welcome to rejoin civilization
 

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I'm doing a search right now, but unless I'm mistaken, we do have regulations against imprisoning and torturing foreign nationals without any kind of conviction or recourse against the charges levied against them.

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Search no further. I found it for you - and herein lies the problem.

We've tied our own hands behind our back when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect this country. The notion that the government is going to come to your house and drag you in to torture you for information on terrorist activities is absurd. Do you really think these people were arrested when a friendly game of checkers in some underground bunker somewhere in Iraq was raided?

I fully support an accused US citizen's right to due process and protection from government sanctioned cruelty; however, I also fully support authorized, trained anti-terrorist personnel torturing suspected foreign terrorists for information necessary to protect this country.

With the power also comes the responsibility, so naturally an agent or agency should be held responsible if a subject is tortured unnecessarily. The system will regulate itself. You will not see the construction of torture centers overflowing with suspects because no one is going to arrest and torture everyone they see wearing a turban if they know that they can be held accountable for torturing an innocent person and coming up empty.

Re: You are welcome to rejoin civilization
 

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You will not see the construction of torture centers overflowing with suspects because no one is going to arrest and torture everyone they see wearing a turban if they know that they can be held accountable for torturing an innocent person and coming up empty.

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So you're saying that the only way to show whether or not torture is justified is whether or not it results in information?

I just want to be sure that I understand your position that we shouldn't torture people unless they give us information, but they won't give us information unless we torture them.

Quite a little catch-22 you've got going there.

Re: You are welcome to rejoin civilization
 

"Draco, being once asked why he made death th epunishment of most offences, replied, "Small ones deserve that, and I have no higher for the greater crimes."" Plutarch, the life of Solon

Re: You are welcome to rejoin civilization
 

I'm really curious how Draco is an authority on this.

Re: You are welcome to rejoin civilization
 

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Here are three

Here are 4 more

This guy also caused a pretty big stir

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Wait, so "innocent until proven guilty" applies to suspected foreign terrorists but it doesn't apply to government operated anti-terrorist organizations?

I see heavy usage of different forms of the words "allege," "investigate," and "accuse" but no usages of any form of the word "proof."

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For example, the prisoners would be stripped naked and forced to watch videotapes of other prisoners who, in turn, had been ordered to sodomize each other.

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Forced to sodomize each other? Did they force feed them Viagra to make them get erections? I don't know about you, but I'd find it pretty impossible to get it up if I were being forced to have sex with a man... even more impossible on camera.

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The guards would throw the prisoners’ Korans into the toilet. They would forcibly shave the prisoners.

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Boo hoo.

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Some among the British detainees – Moazzam Begg and Feroz Abbasi – have been held in total isolation for well over a year.

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What? You mean they tortured them by leaving them alone???

Also please note that I'm talking about torture for the extraction of immediately relevant information. The terms "a year" and "immediate" are not compatible.

IF these allegations are proven to be true, and these people, or others, were tortured just for fun, then I fully agree with prosecution or disciplinary action against those responsible... even if they are confirmed to have terrorist ties.

I DON'T believe in torturing a prisoner just because you're bored or just to be an ass.

I DO believe in torturing a prisoner to extract necessary information when all other avenues have failed.

Hypothetical situation:

Osama bin Laden is captured and knows every single detail about a terrorist attack that will take place in the next 14 days. We politely ask him to tell us. He says no.

Do we a) Say thanks anyway and then send him off to his deluxe prison suite, or b) Start breaking things?

Re: You are welcome to rejoin civilization
 

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Wait, so "innocent until proven guilty" applies to suspected foreign terrorists but it doesn't apply to government operated anti-terrorist organizations?

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Well, the anti-terrorist organizations DID wrongly imprison these men and has admitted it to it through their release.

Re: You are welcome to rejoin civilization
 

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So you're saying that the only way to show whether or not torture is justified is whether or not it results in information?

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Sorry, I was not clear. Let me rephrase.

Torture is justified if the organization authorizing the procedure can prove that both:

a) it, or another credible source, has reason to believe that specific terrorist activity (i.e. a bus bombing in Chicago as opposed to "a bomb in the US") endagering human life is to take place in the near future (i.e. this month as opposed to "sometime during the Bush administration).

and

b) it, or another credible source, has reason to believe that the individual being subjected to torture may be privy to information (i.e. leader/organizer/commander/lieutenant as opposed to gun-toting grunt or "random guy who was caught delivering gym bag to X person at Y time in Z location") and that the information one expects to extract can prevent that event from taking place.

I don't see anything unreasonable about that. The torture does not necessarily need to result in information - there just needs to be proof that there was probable cause that information was being withheld by the subject.

It's analagous to the police searching your car for contraband. If I'm driving a brand new car registered in my name, insured in my name, with my valid driver license presented, a fresh new car smell, and 0.00 BAC, the police officer has no right under the Fourth Amendment. If he violates my rights, it could jeopardize the case against me and strengthen my case against them if I decide to file a lawsuit. Likewise, the organization in question would have to cover its ass when making a decision to torture a suspect.

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I just want to be sure that I understand your position that we shouldn't torture people unless they give us information, but they won't give us information unless we torture them.

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Well, if they gave us the information, we wouldn't need to torture them... so the information comes after the torture. You're on the right track though.

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Quite a little catch-22 you've got going there.

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Not when you read it correctly. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: You are welcome to rejoin civilization
 

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I'm really curious how Draco is an authority on this.

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Me too.

Yay - we agree on something. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: You are welcome to rejoin civilization
 

What makes you believe that torturing "a captured terrorist that knows every detail of a coming attack" will give you the right information? First, discount all of the publicized issues of torture not working well at all, as well as documented instances in recent history where tortured people gave incorrect information. Now that we've got that out of the way, you now have the option of torturing someone who may be willing to even blow himself up for what he believes in. So, you've captured this terrorist who knows where a bomb is, and you're going to pull his fingernails off until he cracks? You'll need to do some convincing before I'll believe it'll work.

Now, assume the United States starts sanctioning torture. I would hazard a guess that, in a war against an extremist ideology that seems to hate us with a passion, torturing them wouldn't do much to help our cause. Also, it gives us zero right to criticise or do anything against another nation or group who tortures American citizens (think our soldiers overseas).

Torture is terrible. From every single account I've heard, it doesn't work in achieving what it's supposed to, and it opposes so much of what this country has historically stood for.

Re: You are welcome to rejoin civilization
 

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Well, the anti-terrorist organizations DID wrongly imprison these men and has admitted it to it through their release.

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I'm referring to the allegations of torture.

It's obvious they were imprisoned. There's no need to prove that.