Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

This is a fold but let's move on and say you called, now what?

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

Fold.

I can maybe see an argument for calling if you are on the button, but I can't imagine your equity is large enough to warrant a call OOP here with a cold-caller having position on you.

More Preflop
 

Yep. I folded. Thanks for confirming, guys.




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No, really. OK, so I guess I felt like gambooling it up or whatever, and I talked myself into the fact that 5:1 probably am not a huge EV dog here to make a call, and if I hit a good hand, these guys will pay me off and then some.

So I called.

BB now 3-bets, and EP caps. MP cold-calls again. Now I'm getting 7:1, but I still have J6s in the small blind and at least one guy likes his hand.

I...

Re: More Preflop
 

hey joker... with 7:1 it is a call. You make the flush here ~8:1, and even thou its the non nut youll be paid off plenty of times when you hit because c/ring will be like eating cake.

i do not call the 2 bet thou, so what i wrote above should never apply.

interesting how poker works [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

On the bandwagon,,,,not even close IMO

Hell With This, etc.
 

You know what, this hand sucks and the more I think about it, the less interesting the post-flop decisions are. I guess I was really mostly curious about preflop, to see if the reads change anyone's action from the standard fold to a call. But no, being OOP sucks and expecting a lot of action sucks. 8/10 times I make this fold and don't think twice, but I called and ended up getting trapped in a hand with a draw.

Here's the flop action, because I think it's also potentially debatable:

So I called PF the second time getting 7:1, and 4 of us saw the flop for 16sb.

Flop comes 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. A gutshot and backdoor flush. I check, BB checks, EP bets, MP calls, I call (I don't think anyone can argue for a fold getting 18:1, and a raise seems really spewy, so this decision appears obvious). BB now checkraises, and EP 3-bets, and MP cold-calls again.

Now what? I'm getting 25:2 but not closing the action. If it gets capped I'm getting 29:3 with the slight chance that someone else has a 6 and a 5 only gives me a chop (but a spade gives me another draw). This is a call, right?

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

[ QUOTE ]
THREEBET AND FIVEBET IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY.

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This made my day. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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First to act after the flop with a "stereotypically aggressive" BB and a "maniac LAG" on your left? I think it is that big of a mistake.

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Isn't this better than having them on your right? The OP has the worst absolute position, but he has great relative position to the aggressors.

Of course, I fold this without a 2nd thought. Even with a 2/3 blind structure, I'd fold. Actually, I'd probably fold even if I were in the BB closing the action.

One thing I'd like to point out, is that getting 9:1 in the SB in an unraised pot is different than getting 9:1 in the BB in a raised pot. Even though your immediate pot odds are the same in both situations, your implied odds are effectively cut in half because the bet size does not increase with the bets.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
First to act after the flop with a "stereotypically aggressive" BB and a "maniac LAG" on your left? I think it is that big of a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't this better than having them on your right? The OP has the worst absolute position, but he has great relative position to the aggressors.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I always try to keep the maniacs on my right. Being in position against these guys is a pretty big equalizer against their unpredictability. Sure, you will get checkraised, but playing a maniac is tough either way and I don't think it outweighs the benefits of being last to act.

Re: Hell With This, etc.
 

You can expect to win a few BB's when a 5 comes, so that makes it a clear call.

Re: sults
 

Belloc wanted results so in case anybody else does, I'll just post these and then let this horrible hand die.

I called the flop 3-bet, BB capped it, we all called, then I called the 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] turn bet by EP, but then BB checkraised again, and I had odds to call again so I paid 2 BBs to see a brick river which checked around.

BB had AA, EP had 84o and dragged a gargantuan pot.

But hey! I was drawing live to 4 clean outs the whole time! Turns out every postflop call was mathematically mandated, but the very first PF call was ill-advised. Sigh.