Re: I always pay off
 

yeah a specific bead on his play can make it pretty easy, but there is such a large class of hands which fall into this situation that you need a solid basic strategy for it IMO. for instance, change the A to a Q and you have QK...what about QJ? etc...

Re: I always pay off
 

This is going to be a call a lot.

1) If it seems like you might be out of line you need to call here. If he might raise a worse Ace you need to call here. If he may be out of line...

2) If there's a lot of reason to believe you don't think he's f'in around (tight player, doesn't raise the turn often with goods) and he has no reason to believe you are f'in around then we can start thinking about folding but only if we make it past #1. Otherwise next hand.

If we aren't sure calling is going to be best as our relative strength to board is pretty good here.

We can't win them all.

Re: I always pay off
 

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I call these down and write it off to metagame. If the board were significantly more dangerous i'd consider a fold.

Surf

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That adds up to be a pretty expensive metagame purchase.
I'm not saying I auto-fold (or even fold at all) in spots like this. I usually call too. But here's what happens inside my head:

Flop: *Yay, I hit an ace...time to bet my lock hand*

Turn: *Good card, I still feel pretty safe*....(Our House gets raised).....*WTF!! OK, I could be drawing dead, BUT...I think most likely either I have outs to his two pair or I can be ahead to a margin of error for his bad play...I'll call*

River: *SH!T I missed. But the pot's too big at this point....I only have to be good 1 in XX times....I CALL AGAIN*

(Disappointment sets as villain shows AK or A8 or his set)

*What a fish I am...I KNEW I should've mucked on the turn, but I keep doing this. I wonder if other 2+2ers also do this*

Can anyone relate?

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[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

yeah feeling dumb in these spots is a common thing for me, but the times you do take down the pot UI feel extra good

Re: I always pay off
 

I agree. I hate how I feel like on the turn I'm calling because I know I have outs to counterfeit/beat his two-pair, but then on the river when i never improve I have to call because of the pot-size. It's almost counter-inuitive.

Re: I always pay off
 

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Selective memory maybe? I see TAGs take shots at me a not-infrequent amount of the time. I'm too lazy/tired to do the math and see how often he has to be raising a worse hand here for our calldown to be good

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Pot is 6BB after the turn c/r, so we have to be good 2/7 times here for this to be profitable? Is my thinking off here? Obviously there are metagame considerations, but maybe not so much at 5/10. Ignore that for now.

I usually call down here, but if 2/7 is right, I can't see that being correct. What about calling down a certain portion of the time just to avoid getting steamrolled, or is that just stupid?

Re: I always pay off
 

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Selective memory maybe? I see TAGs take shots at me a not-infrequent amount of the time. I'm too lazy/tired to do the math and see how often he has to be raising a worse hand here for our calldown to be good

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Pot is 6BB after the turn c/r, so we have to be good 2/7 times here for this to be profitable? Is my thinking off here? Obviously there are metagame considerations, but maybe not so much at 5/10. Ignore that for now.

I usually call down here, but if 2/7 is right, I can't see that being correct. What about calling down a certain portion of the time just to avoid getting steamrolled, or is that just stupid?

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would like some feedback please

Re: I always pay off
 

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yes.

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The good players at 5/10 are much more rocks then at 10/20 and higher. And even good players slowplay out of position way to much. Even good players seems to think its a good move to checkcall flop and checkraise turn with a strong hand. In my book its a very fishy move that u use as deception, not as default. With a good hand out of position u play it fast, pretending u are on a draw or a pair u want to protect, hoping he will call down with unhit AJ.

3betting a VPIP25/PFR11 at $5/10 with toppair, ok kicker, at turn is a huge misstake.

If u have enough hands on him and his turnaggression is below 1.5 or something like that I think I could make myself fold. I could also see myself call turnraise and fold river if I dont hit (thinking he is on 2pair and I got 5 outs+3 more outs if board pairs). But normally call down both turn and river.

Re: I always pay off
 

Considering a almost never fold TP when heads up without a very strong read, espically not in blind defense situations.

Re: I always pay off
 

My instict says this(Instantly after looking at this hand).

BB's thoughts: Ok i got an ace, A9 so i'm protecting, Calls.

Wooo i hit my ace, Ill call then Check/Raise.

Wooo check, He bet YES!!! Now he could have AT/AJ/AQ/AK but also KK/QQ/JJ/TT/KQ and trying to make me fold. I'll raise and steal the pot and have him call me down.

Just my thoughts, But i tend to call down as the flop isn't that scary, however if you have PT check his stats and play accordingly.

Re: I always pay off
 

I can never fold this. Sometimes you counterfeit two pr, sometimes you beat a weaker ace, sometimes you make a better two pair, sometimes you catch someone (semi)bluffing b/c the board is ace high and dry. 25/11 will not tell you enough about the player to justify 3-betting or folding. There's this foggy ground inbetween where you can maybe kick some game theory. 3-bet this X% of the time and call down Y% of the time. But you've got a lot of hand value on this board and I'm not mucking here, no matter how bad I'm running.