Re: Couple of independent $22+2 hands
 

i think both pushes are horrible. calling is the right play in both cases, as losing the hand will not put you out of the tourney, and more importantly, you will still have a great deal of fold equity. In the shot that you do hit a set, you will be doubling up 85% of the time.

Re: Couple of independent $22+2 hands
 

huh? TT is in front of AK

Re: Couple of independent $22+2 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
huh? TT is in front of AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Very simplistic way of looking at it. With AK you will be called by hands you dominate more than you will with TT, and AK works better seeing all 5 cards. This is obvious stuff again though really.

Re: Couple of independent $22+2 hands
 

this is exactly why pushing in both of these spots are bad, considering your fe. the only hands calling are AK, and hands better than yours. However, this is a 10+1 so you can expect to get called by at least 2 people. considering the blinds, your stack, and action at the table, pushing is IMO horrible

Re: Couple of independent $22+2 hands
 

Don't forget your pot equity when you hit the flop with TT as opposed to AK.

I'd poosh AK as well.

Re: Couple of independent $22+2 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget your pot equity when you hit the flop with TT as opposed to AK.

I'd poosh AK as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, exactly.

Even Sklansky agrees a push with AK is fine if the pot is between 20 and 50% of your stack. So I guess he must be wrong too [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Couple of independent $22+2 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think both pushes are horrible. calling is the right play in both cases, as losing the hand will not put you out of the tourney, and more importantly, you will still have a great deal of fold equity. In the shot that you do hit a set, you will be doubling up 85% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]I think that's a gross overstatement of the likelihood of doubling up with a set of tens.

Re: Couple of independent $22+2 hands
 

I think this is a good question, and one that can be generalized better than most problems.

Suppose you are in the SB with a full table and a nearly average stack of around 20xBB. You hold TT. What action do you take when there has been an early position minimum raise and no callers? 1-2 callers? How would your decision be affected by fewer players at the table? By having a smaller or larger stack?

Suppose you are in the SB at a table with 7-8 players and a slightly below average stack of 15x-20x BB. You hold TT. What action do you take when there has been an early position minimum raise and no callers? 1-2 callers? How would your decision be affected by fewer (or more) players at the table? By having a smaller or larger stack?

This can also probably be generalized for a group of pocket pairs, maybe 99-JJ or 88-TT.

I imagine that this is one part of your game that should become sort of automatic -- an area for play by formula. It is quite possibly a place where a mixed strategy is theoretically best, so that for SNG players it isn't a real big deal if you stick to one approach even though something else might give you a slight technical edge.

FWIW, my initial reaction was to call in the first problem. And, to push in the second problem. I don't have enough experience to be overly confident about either of my conclusions, and I'm certainly open to other points of view.

*EDIT got the blinds mixed up in my reasoning, so removed that part.

Re: Couple of independent $22+2 hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're wasting 45 chips. You're in the small blind and already have 15 in the pot

If you are one of the better players at the table you should avoid coinflips early.. this is basic tournament stuff


[/ QUOTE ]Part of being the better player is taking advantage of positive situations. In the second problem, there are 285 chips in the pot (minimum raiser plus three callers at 60, the 15 SB and the 30 BB). If you push your 730 and get one caller, you've bet 730 to potentially win 1015 -- that's about 1.4:1 or 58:42. When you get called by two (unpaired) overcards the TT is ahead, people refer to it as a coin flip, but the pair is something like a 7:6 or 6:5 favorite. For instance, TdTc is about a 54:46 favorite against AsKs.

Yes, you'll get called by higher pocket pairs and not all unpaired overcards will call (but also add in a little vig for crazy calls, or a call from a slightly smaller pocket pair). It's not nearly as simple as saying you want to pass on a coin flip this early. In part, because you won't be facing a real coinflip.

Re: Couple of independent $22+2 hands
 

Actually this isn't quite true. By ICM if the first guy calls (let's assume he will, because he was the one who raised) you would need his original raise to be in the region of 88+, AQo+, AJs+. That's quite loose for an UTG raise.

If he calls with AKs or whatever, it's not as good for you as you might think. Pot odds aren't always the whole equation. (If you are called you have to be win 47%-ish of the time)