Re: Satisfying LA Times Op-Ed Piece
 

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religiosity is socially beneficial holds that high rates of belief in a creator, as well as worship, prayer and other aspects of religious practice


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Thanks, I missed that. Still, it's very general and would apply to a very high percentage of humanity throughout history. Does his study include Muslims? I'm not sure, but I think the crime rate, etc., is low in the Mideast, though I'm not sure how terrorism factors in. What about Hindu, Buddhist, Confucious? What about past history? What about genocidal atheists like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot? I would include Hitler as well though it's unclear that he was technically an atheist. I think we can include Sadam in there as well. I also suspect their societies were relatively crime free, in you don't include the criminality of the state.

Re: Satisfying LA Times Op-Ed Piece
 

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hope that helps, luckyme


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Ok, I'm very unfamiliar with sociology. I think anyone has a very long row to hoe to prove that Bible study causes crime or that criminals are drawn to Bible study. Those are absurdities on their face and I doubt that contention will hold up.

Re: Satisfying LA Times Op-Ed Piece
 

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I think anyone has a very long row to hoe to prove that Bible study causes crime or that criminals are drawn to Bible study. Those are absurdities on their face and I doubt that contention will hold up.

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I won't get into the strawman aspects of your statements but perhaps a comment on correlation and causation would be useful here. Sitting at a computer all day does not 'cause' obesity yet a comparison between mountain bikers and online poker players may find a correlation. Correlations can act as a wakeup call, alerting us to third,forth and fifth factors at work in a broader look at the area.
The general view that higher intelligence and better knowledge seems to correlate with lower religousity may be pointing to the same factors at work in this paper. Not claiming at this point that they are but it'd be interesting to know if, say, IQ ( or some measurable trait) and level of education is higher in the blue states vs the red states.

At this stage I'm just taking this paper as a good "hmmmm..." stimulator and I'd be interested in some well-thought out exploration of the reasons for the correlations if they stand up to scrutiny. ( correlations have reasons, that still doesn't make them causations, naturally).

You statements seems to miss the whole point of the paper and of correlation study in general, but since it's only a sentence or two I'm sure it doesn't necessarily express your thought on the issue.

luckyme

Re: Satisfying LA Times Op-Ed Piece
 

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You statements seems to miss the whole point of the paper


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I may well have missed the point of the paper and I may have inadvertently used a straw man argument. What concerned me was the LA Times story, which at least implies that Christians are more likely to be criminals and that therefore somehow Christianity should be avoided.

I don't doubt there is a correlation between superstition and IQ. It's when Christianity is equated with superstition that difficulties arise. And there are many other differences between the red and blue states besides "religiosity", such as economics and education.

But I'm not a sociologist so I probably shouldn't even be in this thread. I just want to deny ANY correlation between becoming a genuine Christian and becoming a criminal or becoming morally worse.

Re: Satisfying LA Times Op-Ed Piece
 

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It's when Christianity is equated with superstition that difficulties arise.

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What difficulties, and for whom?

Re: Satisfying LA Times Op-Ed Piece
 

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What difficulties, and for whom?


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Christianity is not a superstition. Labelling it that way reduces it to the level of a witch doctor or an astrologer. For all Christians.

Re: Satisfying LA Times Op-Ed Piece
 

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What difficulties, and for whom?


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Christianity is not a superstition. Labelling it that way reduces it to the level of a witch doctor or an astrologer. For all Christians.

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Why is it ok for you to insult those who believe in witch-doctors and astrologers?

Re: Satisfying LA Times Op-Ed Piece
 

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Why is it ok for you to insult those who believe in witch-doctors and astrologers?


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My apologies. If any wds or astrologers are reading this and would like to discuss your persuasion, please join this forum.

Re: Satisfying LA Times Op-Ed Piece
 

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It's when Christianity is equated with superstition that difficulties arise.

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Shouldn't raise a difficulty since to non-belivers it's "An irrational belief ..." and they'd be committing a logical error not to refer to it as superstition. Subscribers to any superstition ( even poker players who won't change their shirts) believe there are logical reasons for their belief compared to the other guys silly superstition.


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I just want to deny ANY correlation between becoming a genuine Christian and becoming a criminal or becoming morally worse.

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Ok, you're on record. Mind you, I don't see how denying a correlation somehow means it doesn't exist. Ahhhh... I see you've turned it into a causation again... sorry.

luckyme... if I thought I was wrong I'd change my mind

Re: Satisfying LA Times Op-Ed Piece
 

If anyone actually foresees this paper’s suggestion as ever being valid, then I think we have bigger problems than whether God exists or not or the validity (or non) of religions, that is: That anyone here actually thinks paper is going to stand up to logical scrutiny.