Re: A real question - alternative
 

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Do not let old sick theologies stand in your way. If you find it, live it. Paul never knew Jesus in person either. He was struck by some kind of conversion experience. If you have such an experience you have as much right to develop a theology to explain it as he did.

PairTheBoard

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Can you expound upon this please mi amigo?

Cheers,
SDM

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I'm suprised I haven't been cursed by now into the ultimate last googolplex chamber of hell for daring to say something so beyond the pale of blasphemy. I'm afraid to say much more for fear of making my already infinitely horrible prospective afterlife even worse.

PairTheBoard

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No entiendo.

Re: A real question - alternative
 

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Hope i answered your question

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You more or less did ... in so far as my understanding of your answer is that its difficult for you to reconcile the implications in parts of the Bible of "eternal damnation" with the implications of a perfect, loving God.

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Most people believe Hell is hot and forever, I assume this is your idea of eternal suffering.

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Good God no!! Not since I was about 8 have I believed such a thing. If you have ever seen the movie "What Dreams May Come" (Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding Jnr.) it's depiction of 'hell' is closer to my understanding of it - i.e. a state of being in which you are stuck forever in a situation which provides the most pain/anguish (not of a physical nature).

What gets to me is that the implications in the Bible, even ignoring the Old Testament (which to be quite honest I personally see as a load of outdated scaremongery and mythology anyway) are that some people will suffer eternal damnation. And by most interpretations 'some people' includes many who live good and decent lives but who do not accept God and Christ as the way to God. (Most religions seem to have this sort of exclusion clause.)

Now
1. Limited damnation is, by definition, not eternal
2. Annihilation is also, by definition, not eternal (rather its instant, though for me this is the worst of all possibilities)

While I haven't read any part of the Bible for many many years, I'm pretty sure the implications are that the 'damnation' is eternal.

And, I personally can't imagine giving up forever on one of my children regardless of what they did. (Certainly, if one was a drug addict etc. etc., as you describe, and I believed ejecting them from my house was the most effective option at that time for their own good then I would do that, even though it would be terribly difficult, but I would not do it permanently, and if it didn't help them in the long run then I would take them back and search for other alternatives.)

If God is perfect in his love then I can't imagine how, even if one rejects Hhim, even if one commits the most appalling and horrific of offences against Him, He will abandon or condemn to eternal damnation (of whatever form you posit).

So, I have serious problems with the Bible (or any other man-written 'word of God'). I believe the Bible to be a collection of stories some based on fact, some based on contextual speculation, some maybe even guided by God (if He exists) which are designed to show us how to lead our lives in a way that will please and glorify God (if He exists). But I certainly don't believe that if I never receive the 'body of Christ' and never acknowledge the existence of God I'll be eternally punished (if He does, indeed, exist).

In one sense, I imagine that a proper 'punishment' for misdeeds is experiencing exactly what the victim of those misdeeds experienced as a result. By which I don't mean doing the same to the wrongdoer, but rather exposing them to exactly what the victim 'felt'. And, this is a punishment that I would be prepared to visit on my own children.

Re: A real question - alternative
 

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" The miracle is not that we do this work, but that we are happy to do it." -- Mother Teresa


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Excellent point! And it gets to the heart of my original question.
If anybody's suffering is also God's suffering, and we are 100% certain that God exists and experiences the suffering, and we know that God loves each and every one of us perfectly, then, for me the reciprocal applies - we must love God as perfectly as we can, and so suffer in his suffering, and so experience true happiness only in alleviating it.

At the moment, I feel guilty enough right now about the fact that I have a place to live, food to eat and time to enjoy myself, while there are people in the world who are subjected to poverty and suffering and the injustices of evil men. But, if I knew, with 100% certainty that God existed and that everything the Bible says about how we should treat God's children was true then I could not live with myself and not spend my life helping others. And I can't see how anyone in the same situation could.

Re: A real question - alternative
 

This forum so far seems like the classy flipside of OOT. :P

I guess I'll have to read more.

Re: A real question - alternative
 

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" The miracle is not that we do this work, but that we are happy to do it." -- Mother Teresa


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Excellent point! And it gets to the heart of my original question.
If anybody's suffering is also God's suffering, and we are 100% certain that God exists and experiences the suffering, and we know that God loves each and every one of us perfectly, then, for me the reciprocal applies - we must love God as perfectly as we can, and so suffer in his suffering, and so experience true happiness only in alleviating it.

At the moment, I feel guilty enough right now about the fact that I have a place to live, food to eat and time to enjoy myself, while there are people in the world who are subjected to poverty and suffering and the injustices of evil men. But, if I knew, with 100% certainty that God existed and that everything the Bible says about how we should treat God's children was true then I could not live with myself and not spend my life helping others. And I can't see how anyone in the same situation could.

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"Wakan Tankan Nici Un" -- Lakota

"May the Great Spirit walk with you."


PairTheBoard

Re: A real question - alternative
 

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Hope i answered your question

[/ QUOTE ]

You more or less did ... in so far as my understanding of your answer is that its difficult for you to reconcile the implications in parts of the Bible of "eternal damnation" with the implications of a perfect, loving God.

[ QUOTE ]
Most people believe Hell is hot and forever, I assume this is your idea of eternal suffering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good God no!! Not since I was about 8 have I believed such a thing. If you have ever seen the movie "What Dreams May Come" (Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding Jnr.) it's depiction of 'hell' is closer to my understanding of it - i.e. a state of being in which you are stuck forever in a situation which provides the most pain/anguish (not of a physical nature).

What gets to me is that the implications in the Bible, even ignoring the Old Testament (which to be quite honest I personally see as a load of outdated scaremongery and mythology anyway) are that some people will suffer eternal damnation. And by most interpretations 'some people' includes many who live good and decent lives but who do not accept God and Christ as the way to God. (Most religions seem to have this sort of exclusion clause.)

Now
1. Limited damnation is, by definition, not eternal
2. Annihilation is also, by definition, not eternal (rather its instant, though for me this is the worst of all possibilities)

While I haven't read any part of the Bible for many many years, I'm pretty sure the implications are that the 'damnation' is eternal.

And, I personally can't imagine giving up forever on one of my children regardless of what they did. (Certainly, if one was a drug addict etc. etc., as you describe, and I believed ejecting them from my house was the most effective option at that time for their own good then I would do that, even though it would be terribly difficult, but I would not do it permanently, and if it didn't help them in the long run then I would take them back and search for other alternatives.)

If God is perfect in his love then I can't imagine how, even if one rejects Hhim, even if one commits the most appalling and horrific of offences against Him, He will abandon or condemn to eternal damnation (of whatever form you posit).

So, I have serious problems with the Bible (or any other man-written 'word of God'). I believe the Bible to be a collection of stories some based on fact, some based on contextual speculation, some maybe even guided by God (if He exists) which are designed to show us how to lead our lives in a way that will please and glorify God (if He exists). But I certainly don't believe that if I never receive the 'body of Christ' and never acknowledge the existence of God I'll be eternally punished (if He does, indeed, exist).

In one sense, I imagine that a proper 'punishment' for misdeeds is experiencing exactly what the victim of those misdeeds experienced as a result. By which I don't mean doing the same to the wrongdoer, but rather exposing them to exactly what the victim 'felt'. And, this is a punishment that I would be prepared to visit on my own children.

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I'm gonna have to rent that movie soon, I remember really enjoying it. (although it was sad)

There was some verse in the OT either in Malachii or soforth that some people say is descriptive of hell, it is just the destruction of the soul, but I can't find it and am not quite sure if I believe them exactly.

Re: "loving God", the Bible says God is loving but IMHO people use this argument way too much. (not saying you are saying this, just speaking in general)

The fact is God is all powerful and we are nothing. He holds all the cards and even *if* he was a cruel God, nobody once they crossed over would be foolish enough to refuse to serve him and opt to take hell because they believe it is wrong to worship such a "God". (despite what all these atheists may say while they are here, over there it'll be a different story)

I think though for all God's faults (debatable if he has any, IMHO it doesn't matter because he would theoretically make less than us and is eternal wheras we are not, so we can't judge) it does appear he is fond of humanity and the Bible chronicles this time and time again.

It is very easy to pick parts of the Bible and say God is a prick, God contradicts himself etc, but those people also ignore God's apparent "love" for humanity.

Re: kids; I ofcourse do not have the answer and understand completely where you are coming from.

There is a painting by Jacques Louis David though that may be of help to our discussion, I quote from the wikipedia:

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The painting depicts Brutus, the Roman leader, grieving for his sons. Brutus’s sons had attempted to overthrow the government and restore the monarchy, so the father ordered their death to maintain the republic. Thus, Brutus was the heroic defender of the republic, at the cost of his own family. On the right, the Mother holds her two daughters, and the grandmother is seen on the far right, in anguish. Brutus sits on the left, alone, brooding, but knowing what he did was best for his country. The whole painting was a Republican symbol, and obviously had immense meaning during these times in France.

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Here's the pic:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/his...dav_brutus.jpg

I think this may be a good example of the kids example we discussed.

Apparently God cannot tolerate sin and it is impossible for it to enter heaven. While human beings are tainted with sin, he has no choice but to seperate them from himself and his kingdom. That is fair.

If God makes a way for all humans to be with him and enter the kingdom, that also is very fair.

Salvation is called a "free gift", all you have to do is accept it, sweet deal IMHO.

I think we'd have to assume those who never heard the message or couldn't comprehend it (children and persons with mental afflictions) are saved by God's grace also, this is a loving God if this is the case.

Perhaps it is not to our perception always that God is loving, but I think he is if the Bible is right.

Cheers,
SDM