READS ARE NICE>>>>>>>
 

....but in this case i didn't have one. I understand that a read would be helpful. If I had a choice, I'd have one. But I don't. My god, we don't get a read on every player. Get over it.

Re: READS ARE NICE>>>>>>>
 

Hey, mellow out. I'm not sure who you're replying too, but I was merely saying that the question is hard against an unknown.

Re: READS ARE NICE>>>>>>>
 

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. I'm not sure who you're replying too,

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no one and everyone. nothing personal, but many have mentioned a read would be helpful. I had a read, it was "I have never seen this guy before in my life".

Re: I hate this spot
 

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Uh, calls. It's not that hard. If you've got a read on what he bets, then it's an easier decision, but against unknowns, you're up against A6 and 75 and often random bluffs frequently enough to see a showdown.

Rob

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I think he's got a 6 often enough that you're leaving bets on the table by just calling.

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I dunno. When I balance it out that he can have something like a 6, a bluff, or a Jack, I think it's fairly close between raising and calling. Your default 5/10 player isn't particularly aggressive but when I raise these flops I seem to get turn/river folds fairly often, but when I call down, I often seem to get 2.5BB out of a completely hopeless hand. It's not too often (though it does happen) that I get 3BB+ out of a worse hand on a flop like this.

I don't mind relinquishing control of the hand when I think my hand is best often enough to call (but maybe not often enough to raise) and when I really want to get a read on my opposition, which is often. I find that knowing what my opponents tend to lead into the PFR is probably the singlemost important thing for me to know in these games when donkbets reign supreme.

Rob

Re: I hate this spot
 

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What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

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Intellectually this line is appealing, however:

1. We're never folding a better hand here HU.

2. We can get to showdown for the same price, and be 100% sure that we didn't get bet out of the pot by a worse hand.

3. We encourage a bluffer to continue bluffing. Raising the turn lets him get away 1 bet cheaper if he would have taken a shot at the river.

Aggression is the mantra of these forums, and rightly so. However, there are times when the best play is to call all 3 postflop streets. This is one of them IMHO.

Surf

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I really liked what Oreogod was saying until you posted this. All three points are excellent, though I do wonder if we're able to get 88 & 99 to fold if we raise the turn. I think there are at least some opponents who will dump them, and when they do its a major coup for us.

When opponent is behind (with a 6 or some other crap), we do manage to lose the pot for ourselves some of the time by taking the call-call-call line... so on longer consideration, I think calling the frop and raising the turn does sound worthy of consideration. With any piece of the board they're probably calling our turn raise, then checking to us on the river if they stay behind. We can bet, they'll think, call and there are are having protected our hand somewhat, and much of the time gained an extra BB.

Give what posters above have said about the tendency to check-raise with a Jack, I think we're ahead often enough to find a raise *somewhere* in this hand.

Re: I hate this spot
 

Raise the flop, bet the turn, bet the river depending on board texture.

Re: I hate this spot
 

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What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

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this is my line.

Krishan

Re: I hate this spot
 

I'm ok with raising the flop...but I hate this line. I've tried it enough to know that what happens is the only hands that fold are those you really don't want to fold.

Re: I hate this spot
 

I just call it down for the reasons already stated. Let him hang himself with a worse hand or lose the cheapest showdown possible.

Re: I hate this spot
 

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What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

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Intellectually this line is appealing, however:

1. We're never folding a better hand here HU.

2. We can get to showdown for the same price, and be 100% sure that we didn't get bet out of the pot by a worse hand.

3. We encourage a bluffer to continue bluffing. Raising the turn lets him get away 1 bet cheaper if he would have taken a shot at the river.

Aggression is the mantra of these forums, and rightly so. However, there are times when the best play is to call all 3 postflop streets. This is one of them IMHO.

Surf

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1. Once in a while you will fold a better hand here, but it's rare. You will however fold a hand with outs reasonably often. Even a bluff likely has outs.

2. Without a read, this can be a dangerous line. I feel confident that if we get 3-bet folding is safef 99% of the time. It's not like we have an overpair here.

3. Sometimes a bluffer has outs we don't mind folding. And sometimes a bluffer will give up on the river. And sometimes he has a draw.

Krishan