Two Plus Two Older Archives - QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

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- - QQ check/raised on turn What do you do? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=295865)

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

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FYI, no one check/raised you.

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You're right and I just noticed that I put that in the title. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

If I can get some comments on MP3's play I'll explain how I made that mistake.

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

I liked his play. By raising the turn he had the chance to win right there. If you called he had 12 (9 hearts and 3 Aces) outs which is pretty good. If he was going to call to the river on his draw it cost him the same either way 2BB. The bet on the river is obviosuly a bluff and the pot was large enough based on the way he palyed the hand to give it a try

I hadnt given this any thought until this post. I know plan to use this if the opportuniy arises.

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

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Just sat down so no reads on anyone. What do you do on the turn (and river if you call the turn)?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls

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River: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qh Qd (one pair, queens).
MP3 has 2h Ah (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins 11.25 BB. 

So it turned out to be a semi-bluff raise on the turn. I'd really like to know what you all think of MP3's play since one guy on the table called him an idiot.

Do any of you guys make a bluff raise like this here?

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Against me, the turn raise is probably a good play.

Against typical 1/2 players, I'm not so sure.

If you fold one time in four (and with QQ-TT, which is 18 combos, it's not an easy call), he's already gotten a break-even return on his investment, if we look at it as a pure bluff.

But it's not a pure bluff. From his perspective, he's got nine heart outs (he doesn't know one is in your hand), 3 non-heart gutshot outs that are probably good against a PFR (though the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is more tainted than the others), and potentially 3 top pair outs.

So, when you call, he's still got a decent chance to win. However, when you've got AK (9 combos), AA (3 combos), and especially KK (3 combos) you might 3-bet, and MP3 can't fold to that and is charging himself to draw.

On the other hand, he puts some pocket pairs to a decision, and if by some chance you've been firing with AQo, then it's going to be difficult for you to call, though you have the best hand.

Against a player who won't fold, the play loses much of its value. Also, I think Villain's pure bluff on the river was probably not worth it. He can't hope to fold much that you called with on the turn except a big suited A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and that's just not going to be what you have very often. But if you'll always 3-bet AK/AA/KK on the turn and your call means exactly QQ-TT or a flush draw, then I guess firing again in the hopes of pushing you off of AQs-AJs in spades is worth a shot, and then then if we can add ATs to your range, then the river bluff gains additional potential.

Anyway, in my experience in small stakes, players who make semi-bluffs like this tend to do it a lot, often with far fewer outs than Villain had, and when it's overused, the semibluff becomes a less dangerous weapon, I think.

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

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Just sat down so no reads on anyone. What do you do on the turn (and river if you call the turn)?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls

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River: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qh Qd (one pair, queens).
MP3 has 2h Ah (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins 11.25 BB. 

So it turned out to be a semi-bluff raise on the turn. I'd really like to know what you all think of MP3's play since one guy on the table called him an idiot.

Do any of you guys make a bluff raise like this here?

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It's a semi-bluff raise (important distinction -- important enough that I'll point it out even though you called it right the first time), and it's good against a player capable of folding. You must always consider your opposition when you make these plays. He also needs to be aware of his image, because if he does this too often, he's going to get himself looked up too often.

He should have checked behind on the river, since the he's not folding anybody who called the turn raise AND has a better hand than him. Okay, maybe a better Axs, but there aren't many of those which raise preflop from the big blind...

By the way, this brings out a good point. Players bluff/semi-bluff at these levels far more often than most people realize. A lot of posters here are too busy believing that everybody is a passive-predictable donk that they don't see the diversity of players out there.

This is why reads are important, and why lots of players using HUDs are really killing themselves from a developmental point of view. If you're not looking, you're never going to see it.

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

beautiful check/call on the river. i know i suggested betting back into him on a non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] but you'll just fold a busted flush draw, he may bet again (as he did), you get to see his cards to see how he plays.

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

Ok, I'll come clean on this one now. In fact, I was MP3 in this hand. I posted it like I did because I wanted to see how many people here would fold to the turn raise. Looks like about half which is what I would have thought.

I use the semi-bluff turn raise fairly often. However, it's usually a check/raise--which seems to be the "Spanish Inquistion" of semi-bluff raises. As in, "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquistion". [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

When I posted this thread I obviously thought I check/raised the turn (I didn't). Not sure if I thought that during the hand or not. When the action got to me heads up on the turn the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] seemed to be the perfect card to semi-bluff with. It gave me a ton of outs and made a possible straight on the board.

When the BB called my bet on the river I was sure he had a King and was surprised when I saw the QQ. Much of the time I can get QQ to fold there--which is one reason I bet on the river. The river bet also folds Ace anything but two pair.

In looking back at the hand now there were two things that weren't optimal for this play to work. I had position on the raiser which then doesn't allow the shock of the C/R. Also, the raiser was in the BB which makes the odds of him raising with Ax less.

I think the thread has been a success though since at least one poster realized that the turn semi-bluff can be a good play and maybe some of the Micro-Tighties will realize that there are people like me out there in MicroLand who aren't always raising the turn with the goods.

One other thing I wanted to mention. Even if the play fails and you lose the pot it still may win you that much in later play since now people will be more inclined to call your turn raises and river bets. Since this is the case you pretty much have to bet with the goods at that table the rest of the time--or at least until you've shown down some good hands. Keep 'em guessin'.

Here's the actual hand:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has Qh Qd (one pair, queens).
Hero has 2h Ah (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins 11.25 BB.

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

This doesn't look like a check raise to me. But anyway, tough spot. I find myself here all the time. Me personally, I call and show down as cheap as possible. I find people waiting till the turn to raise top pair a lot. No way I'm folding.

Nice hand to post BTW.

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?

absent a read that mp3 is super tricky, I muck. I can't think of anything reasonable he has that you beat.

edit: just noticed that you weren't actually check/raised. I call down.

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

OK from this side of the fence now. I can see why you made the semi bluff raise on the turn, but I don't understand the river bet. I don't see any player at party 1/2 calling a turn raise and folding the river for one.

Re: QQ check/raised on turn What do you do?(rest of the hand)

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OK from this side of the fence now. I can see why you made the semi bluff raise on the turn, but I don't understand the river bet. I don't see any player at party 1/2 calling a turn raise and folding the river for one.

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I would guess that 3 out of 4 or so that fold to this play do so on the river. Also, if I DON"T bet the river then I'm just handing him 9BBs because I have 0% chance of winning that way.