Re: KJo in the BB
 

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This assumes that KJo can be assigned +EV from this position in the first place. A line has to be drawn for the hands that are worthy of a bet in the BB.

With three limpers, a hand like KJ is vulnerable to domination.

Domination by what?

It's dominated by AJ, AK, KQ, JJ, KK, and AA.

Which one of those is limping in here?

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Less than 12 hours ago you were trying to tell me that "lots of people limp with JJ". Here I will quote exactly your words from the discussion on the other forum.

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Anyway, the postflop action, do you really want to be three-betting top two on this turn with no reads?

Lots of people limp with JJ.

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That is exactly what you said. And just now, on this forum, you ask me if JJ is limping here. Have you taken your medication?

Anyway, JJ isn't usually limping here. But at a loose passive table, KQ and AJ are.

I'm going to bed. You can stay up all night and try to convince people that KJ in the BB against three limpers has an equity edge.

But you will have to stop contradicting yourself first.

Goodnight

Re: KJo in the BB
 

But what I worry about is bloating the pot with an offsuit hand. People will have correct odds to call with gutshots on the flop almost definitely.


Same is true of AKo. You'd raise that here, no? The whole "I don't want to give people odds to draw" argument ignores the value you gain from the flop raise. Now, don't get me wrong. KJo isn't AKo in terms of EV and raising it in situations like this will increase your variance. I think it's clearly +EV though, particularly in a game where people regularly limp with K4.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Yes I raise AKo and AQo, because I think they are such great hands that being out of position and offsuit does not affect them as much as it does weaker hands like AJo, KQo, and KJo.

I do understand your point though, so starting tomorrow, I will start to experiment with raising AJo, KQo, and KJo from the blinds. I will still only complete and check ATo though. What do you think?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Raising this preflop sucks. You're bloating the pot preflop with KJ-high in the second worst position. Your equity edge is much smaller than you're suggesting, as well:

Against opponents who play 40%, 55%, and 60% of their hands preflop, KJo has 26.957% equity in the pot. If you're raising hands purely because of their equity, am I correct in assuming you're also raising 66 and A5s here, because they've also got about the same amount of equity (just so you know, AKo has 35% against this same range, so the difference between AKo and KJo is huge).

Preflop life is more than equity, and when your edge over the field is a whopping 2%, pushing your "edge" really ain't all that hot, especially when you consider the difficulties presented in your postflop play due to that little "push."

I said it before, I'll say it again: raising this preflop in this situation sucks.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

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It's dominated by AJ, AK, KQ, JJ, KK, and AA.


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Also QQ. Domination is technically when a hand has 3 or fewer outs against another hand.

Rob

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Entity, so was my original reasoning correct?

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But what I worry about is bloating the pot with an offsuit hand. People will have correct odds to call with gutshots on the flop almost definitely.

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I do raise AKs/AKo/AQs/AQo/KQs/KJs/QJs/QTs/JTs here, but I just complete check with AJo/KQo/KJo/ATo. Does this sound good?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Preflop life is more than equity, and when your edge over the field is a whopping 2%, pushing your "edge" really ain't all that hot, especially when you consider the difficulties presented in your postflop play due to that little "push."

Hence me qualifying it with "if you play well postflop".

It's clearly a lot easier to play than 66 or A5 postflop.

You're essentially saying that you wouldn't make a +EV play because...it's not easy?

I'm intrested in maximizing return not simplifying play.

You may have other priorites.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

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Entity, so was my original reasoning correct?

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But what I worry about is bloating the pot with an offsuit hand. People will have correct odds to call with gutshots on the flop almost definitely.

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It's correct but incomplete. Your biggest considerations should be position, equity gain/loss, and pot bloat, probably in that order. There has been much debate over whether raising AQo in this situation is correct; I'm usually not raising AJo or KQo here, but it does depend on my reads of the limpers. I'm rarely, if ever, raising ATo or worse.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

I added some:

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I do raise AKs/AKo/AQs/AQo/KQs/KJs/QJs/QTs/JTs here, but I just complete check with AJo/KQo/KJo/ATo. Does this sound good?

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What I understand from this is that AQo has a big enough equity advantage preflop to make raising correct, even though you are out of position and you will be bloating the pot. But I should still be inclined to raise suited cards above ten hjere like KTs, because they give me another way to win. Good?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

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Preflop life is more than equity, and when your edge over the field is a whopping 2%, pushing your "edge" really ain't all that hot, especially when you consider the difficulties presented in your postflop play due to that little "push."

Hence me qualifying it with "if you play well postflop".

It's clearly a lot easier to play than 66 or A5 postflop.

You're essentially saying that you wouldn't make a +EV play because...it's not easy?

I'm intrested in maximizing return not simplifying play.

You may have other priorites.

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I asked you a simple question: are you raising A5s here? You said that your priority is equity gain, not simplifying play. A5s is virtually the same as KJo here (I ran the sims, both are around 26.8% equity against the limpers I mentioned).

Rob