Re: Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)
 

You also forgot one thing. It goes without saying that the teachers' unions must be eliminated as soon as possible.

natedogg

Re: Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)
 

What a weird thread. I find myself agreeing with the concerns of natedogg and arguing with AC Player [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)
 

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First, let me note that the state has done a fine job already of dictating what they think is important regardless of whether it is vital to the child's education.


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First... its often not the state. Its the school board which are often elected members from the community. This is how special interest groups (like religious nuts) get in and start to dictate agenda. And I thought the point of this thread is to explain how to reform our education system to make our children competitive with the rest of the world?

This is a completely different question then; how can each parent choose what they want their kid to study. What it takes to better educate our nation's children has very little to do with vouchers or no vouchers. Or if the state is making the decisions or the Federal government. Its the competence of who makes the decision that's important.

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You either respect parents' choices or you don't. If you think the state should be allowed to overrule the parents' decisions about their child's education, then there's no way we'll agree.


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There's two different (and very emotional) issues here; who has the RIGHT to make these decisions and who can make the BEST decision in there areas..

I have no problem saying I think most people aren't bright enough to know how best to fix the schools, how best to insure their children get the best education, etc.

Let's pretend that we were talking about medical treatment instead of education. No one would agree that if a child was really sick, we should ask the parents what kind of medical treatment they should receive. Most parents do not have the expertise to diagnose and treat their children for anything worse then the flu.

Why do we pretend that most parents have any clue what their children need to be competitive? MOST parents have minimal involvement in their children's education.

I just simply can't agree that most people have any clue what their children need to get a good education.

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The answer to the biggest problems we have in education right now can be easily solved by simply giving parents the choice of schools.


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I don't see you can say this. If the question was, how can the kids be competitive in today's market, and a parent decides to send their kid to a school that teaches their kids that science is unnecesasry and blasphemy, prayer is the only way to treat illness, etc. That's the parent's right, but that child will not have had an education that is competitive.

Parents who don't want their children learning about Evolution, will never have a fundamental understanding of biological theory.

etc.

My concern about homeschooling is that the children often cannot grasp subjects beyond the comprehension of their parents. If a parent is sharp and astute, then the child may flourish. If the parent isn't too bright, then it will be difficult for the child to learn.

Re: Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)
 

At some level this is true. If the voters elect local officials who want to eliminate public schools, then they will suffer the consequence.

Re: Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)
 

If we can't trust parents to educate thier children, why trust them to raise them at all if they fail miserably at that task.

Perhaps we should have a test to determine who has the right to have and raise children. The test would have to be made up and graded by the educated elite, especially east coast liberals since they are the brightest and most worldly among us.

In fact, why bother having the tests at all. We know most people will fail them. So we might as well just not let people keep thier children. Best to have them all raised in "nurturing camps" or places such as that since there aren't enough knowledgeable and worldy people in this country to take on the children individually. It's clear that the family unit has failed miserably at this excersize and its time for the state to take over.

Re: Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)
 

My experience living in Japan was that women have lots of shitty part-time jobs that end up taking 40 hours a week anyway. From what I understand it is the same in a lot of Asian economies. It is especially more prevelent in lower income households because there is no other way to make enough money. Having a stay at home mom is an economic luxury. Women are still supposed to be the homemakers, they just don't have nearly enough time to do that and work. The solution in those societies is that lives of women end when they become mothers and they turn in to workhorses; never sleeping, resting, or doing anything for themselves.

Do you really believe that schools can't provide a quality education for the same tuition that is effectively being charged when we attend public school. My high school and a myriad of charter and private schools in my area and others prove otherwise. They often provide better educations for LESS money. For instance, my school only sent $6,000 in grants to my charter school, even though it recieved $8,000 in taxes and federal funds per student. So for every student that left my school to attend the charter school the people back at my old school had an extra $2,000 to play around with. So the arguement that it drains resources is rediculous.

If a voucher system was started tommorrow it woudl create a HUGE market for educational services. And MANY private schools would open up whose tuition would be equal to the voucher each student recieved. It would just make plain economic sense. We wouldn't be taking away a "free" education from anyone.

If you want your kid to attend the same school he's in now your free too. With the voucher you can do that, its your money. So you can't make a case based on me using your tax revenue to send my kid to another school.

Re: Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)
 

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If we can't trust parents to educate thier children, why trust them to raise them at all if they fail miserably at that task.


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I think you're comparing Apples to Oranges. A parent may know how to take care of a kid in terms of feeding, clothing, loving.. ie general parenting. That doesn't mean the parents know how to teach their kids what they need to learn science, technology, math, history, etc.

And many parents ARE failing miserably at educating their children. I would argue that a lot of the deterioration of the quality of our children's education is that many parents aren't involved; they don't monitor if there kids are studying, helping them, etc. I've seen numerous articles correlating a child's success with a parent's involvement. (Note: there is a difference between a parent being an involved participant and saying that the parents are the experts on how best to educate the child.)

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Perhaps we should have a test to determine who has the right to have and raise children. The test would have to be made up and graded by the educated elite, especially east coast liberals since they are the brightest and most worldly among us.


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And now you're just getting hyperbolic and cliched. Clearly there are people who have studied what techniques work best for teaching kids. And there are certain subjects which are more important for general skills; (reading, writing, arithmatic, science, etc.) Why is it so hard to accept the idea that there are people who know about education techniques then the average Joe?

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In fact, why bother having the tests at all. We know most people will fail them. So we might as well just not let people keep thier children. Best to have them all raised in "nurturing camps" or places such as that since there aren't enough knowledgeable and worldy people in this country to take on the children individually. It's clear that the family unit has failed miserably at this excersize and its time for the state to take over.

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Clearly you're looking at this logically and not just having a ridiculous emotional overreaction.

Re: Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)
 

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which companies that work for and the potential about the moral implications of such work.

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like i said, it was late. i try to stop posting when i stop making sense.

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I never got the feeling anyone was being exploited.

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in your particular example, that's probably accurate. advertising is my primary concern, as long as some kind of reasonable standard or oversight on the part of the school's board or PTA, i think that type of copperate involvment may be feasable.

Re: Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)
 

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1. How are schools funded?


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the same way they are now

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2. What is the basis for admission to these smaller schools?


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universal admission- i believe that smaller schools should completly replace today's model

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3. How do you get parents involved when both parents work full time? In many of the third world countries with high parental involvement there is only one working parent.


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In much the same way that they're involved today, through PTAs, rotarys, etc, but more of an emphasis should be placed on parent and community involvment, and, like lehighguy discussed, some involvemnet from business may be a good idea, too.

Re: Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)
 

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1. Federal funding and control of education leads to a one size fits all mentality, you address this issue very well.
2. Lack of emphasis on education in society. Who are kids heroes today? Athletes, musicians, and actors. We, as a society need to be far more active in publicly lauding intellectual and people who have real, positive effects on society.
3. Last but certainly not least, the breakdown of the basic social unit, the nuclear family. Just about every study out there shows a direct correlation between family situation and school performance. As a corollary to that, the dwindling acceptance of baseline moral values for a society. This leads to poor family situations and also the rise of the "do what makes you feel good" mentality is harmful to egendering the discipline that every person needs to have to be successful in life, education included.

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as for #1 and #2- that is a part f the problem, but it's the way it's approached, not the fact of the involvement that leads to the problem you point out- like i said, we need a complete paradigm shift when it comes to education.