Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I have to agree maybe AQ isn't one of the top tier hands and Sklanski puts it behind some hands I disagree with heck he puts JJ in the top tier so this list is not perfect I do consider this a raising hand on the button in a NLHE game with limpers in front. I wouldn't play it except under certain conditions to a raise reraise or a raise from a solid player.

But I guess I was mostly responding to a comment by very weak tight NL player who said he'd NEVER raise with this holding with limpers behind and it is only a low limit move.

Also, I play both limit and NL "live" cash and NL and limit tournaments on line and NL Live tournaments - I must admit I'd view this hand differently in all those different game situations.

Of course stack sizes, player "read", table texture and other conditions dictate moves but I think it is silly to say it is wrong to ever raise with AQ in a NLHE game with limpers in behind on the button is just immature and a weak outlook on the game.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I'd raise if I could take it down now or on the flop. I'd also be more inclined to raise if the players are showing weakness by limping in late position. Otherwise I would limp.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I have to say, I don't really understand the rationale for limping. If you do limp, how should you plan to play the flop? If the flop comes A84, limping might've allowed A8s or A4s to hit two pair; if the flop comes Q67, 67s may easily be out there (or 89s now having a good draw). Unless the flop is something like AQ3 or a miracle KJT, how would you have any confidence in your hand if you catch a part of the flop? Would anyone NOT raise AK in the same situation, on the button with limpers?

I personally think AQ is quite a strong hand, combined with the button it's a veritable monster that merits being played pretty much like AK. Raise it up, thin the field, test those limpers out. If one of 'em pops you back, better to snag the AA/KK tripwire now instead of getting trapped later. Raise it up!

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

If you assume that your opponents always raise PF with AK then your AQ on the button (given no raisers) has almost become AK (save two random hands behind you) If you were BB with AQ and no raisers with a ton of limpers I would definitely raise it up. Button it depends. Normally I raise.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the flop comes A84, limping might've allowed A8s or A4s to hit two pair; if the flop comes Q67, 67s may easily be out there (or 89s now having a good draw).

[/ QUOTE ]

Your rationale for raising is not completely correct here, as these hands will call the raise pf everyday of the week online.

They will then go on to take a much bigger % of your stack, since you made the pot that much bigger.

In the end, I am just stating that above low limit games, you will not win a big pot with AQ with TP2K, but you certainly can and will lose one.

There are certainly times to raise AQ, but its not as good of a hand as many are believing.

fsuplayer

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I guess I was mostly responding to a comment by a very weak tight NL player who said he'd NEVER raise with this holding with limpers behind and it is only a low limit move.



[/ QUOTE ]

I have certainly never been saddled with that one before.
Who do you think I am, ML4L?? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

fsuplayer


Go back and reread my post from the other AQ hand MikeGuz, you painfully misunderstood my point.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

vs a bunch of loose limpers seems to me to be just about the worst time to raise with AQ.

the reason NOT to raise AQ on the button with a bunch of limpers is if 4 limpers call you are going to have a big pot, and betting enough to protect your hand is also going to come close to pot sticking you unless you are very deep.

in a 5/10 game, say 4 players limp and you make it 70 straight with 3k behind. blinds fold and everyone calls. the pot is 365 and you have 3 streets to go. betting the pot on the flop and getting one caller is going to make it an 1100 pot.

if you have less money behind, like 1k, it's even easier to stick yourself by building a big pot preflop.

raising before the flop is a pot building move, and before you raise I think you should ask yourself if I have a big pot hand or a small pot hand.

--turnipmonster

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Good points, thanks.
So you would not raise AK in this situation either then?
My post stated that you would have to be sure no one would limp with AK, meaning your AQ is as good as AK.

I thought the justification for raising AK was to thin the field so you CAN take down a small pot, as opposed to getting burned with Axx against two crap pair. In this narrow example would AQ not accomplish the same thing?

All help appreciated.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Backup has arrived!

This was my point, but turnipmonster stated it much more eloquently.

Lower limits with short stacks (ie Party $50), raising with AQ is fine and dandy on the button, as TPTK is a very good hand with a short stack, but the deeper the stacks, the worse hands like AKo AQo really are. Suited they become that much better however.

also against decent players, you arent going to fool them with your AQ and get their stack, but they can trap you quite nicely since they have a good idea of your holding.

good post.

BTW Most replies from this post are straight from the small stakes forum. When the money gets deeper and higher, the game changes dramatically. Which is why you get such different answers from turnip, ML4L and myself.

fsuplayer

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

it really depends on how loose the limpers are. some people will just call any raise before the flop, and vs. them I probably would not raise because of pot control. if I really thought it would thin the field I might raise. in general I think flop raises tend to thin the field a hell of a lot more than preflop pot raises.

most of the time I am not going to get burned by people playing Ace rag, because I am going to play AK well and that entails not committing my stack with one pair against Ace rag players and the fact that they are not going to suck out on me all that often. in short, I am going to trap them more times than they will trap me. also I am going to suck out on two pair sometimes when it gets counterfeit and my kicker plays.

in 5/10 and up (at least in B&M), I think you can rarely be sure no one is limping with AK. depending on the conditions I think most good players will sometimes limp, sometimes raise with it.

--turnipmonster