Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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Here's the offensive part: "Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate."

It assumes a lack of intellect on the part of the reader (unless he happens to agree with the OP). You're not offended? Okay. How about if he wrote, "Gusly, your sister is unattractive. Do you see why?" It's all in the context, I suppose.

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Well... you didn't really push my buttons. But having said that, let me add that you hit the nail on the head by saying that it's all in the context.

There is a 2+2 author who posts on these forums that is fond of using "Do you see why?" as a means to kick off a discussion. Knowing this, do you see why (hope that doesn't offend [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) you may have jumped to the wrong conclusion?

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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Here's the offensive part: "Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate."

[/ QUOTE ] Uh...I believe that line is an homage to Sklansky, who finishes many of his posts with that line, or one similar.

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Aww, man... you gave him the answer. Now he doesn't have to do a search! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Hope, missed it entirely. Glad I didn't have to do the search. I see, the OP meant the whole thing as a tribute?

Now that I'm thinking about it, I do remember reading a number of DS posts that had that kind of line in it. I guess I'm not offended when DS does it because I give him credit for being on-target, so I'm willing to search through the evidence.

You're right. I jumped to a conclusion. No more late night posting for me. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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Hi Pipes:

This debate has come up many times before.

Games that are loose but your opponents are still playing well from the flop on are different from games in which some of your opponents play virtually anything and then play poorly from the flop on.

This is from page 159and 160 of HPFAP where this is addressed:

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There is a bit of a two-edged sword here. If you’re playing against extremely terrible opponents, it’s hard not to raise with pretty good hands because even though you’re costing yourself money on the later streets, your’re gaining so much before the flop because your hand is usually so much better than theirs. In other words, if people are coming in with absolutely everything, you have got to raise with an AQ simply because your hand is so much better on average than so many of the other players.

But if these players are just playing a little looser than what they normally should, and then they play meekly and badly, a reason not to raise with many of these hands is that when you make the pot larger, you are now making some of your opponents play correctly. This is in addition to the fact that some of these hands, such as the AQ just mentioned, don’t play well in multiway pots.


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This explains the differences between the two books.

Best wishes,
Mason

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Mason, thanks for reply. Yes, I have seen the earlier debates. But the hand was AQo and it was a decision between raising and calling.

Here the hand is AJo, and SSH says to raise and in GTBOI it is garbage in a good. Presumably, I would assume that garbage should be folded.

I don't think AJo and KQo have that much more in preflop equity against loose limpers to make up for the fact that you are making them play more correctly postflop.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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Hope, missed it entirely. Glad I didn't have to do the search. I see, the OP meant the whole thing as a tribute?

Now that I'm thinking about it, I do remember reading a number of DS posts that had that kind of line in it. I guess I'm not offended when DS does it because I give him credit for being on-target, so I'm willing to search through the evidence.

You're right. I jumped to a conclusion. No more late night posting for me. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

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Yes, it was a 'tribute'. I should have done the Ray Zee`line too...something to the effect of.."If you don't know why that was the correct play then you don't understand the game"

But I actually don't take offense to it even when they slap one on me. Its like tough love. I come here to improve my knowledge, not to be coddled...

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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I don't think AJo and KQo have that much more in preflop equity against loose limpers to make up for the fact that you are making them play more correctly postflop.

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This is what the debate boils down to. Ed Miller argues that it does, and that is why he says that you must raise these hands. I happen to agree with him, but there is no proof for this, it is just a matter of what you observe through experience, and most peoples experience is that low limit players will limp with garbage hands all the time.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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Ed Miller argues that it does, and that is why he says that you must raise these hands. I happen to agree with him

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Me too. just limping on the button with AJo or KQo against a field of limpers is REALLY going to cost you money (in most games).

The more successful players on 2+2 would almost universally advocate raising in these situations.
The less successful and/or newer players are typically the one's who would be more likely to advocate limping.

This fact alone does not mean that raising with AJo here is DEFINITELY correct....but it's good enough for me to do it EVERY time.
and it's been working for me as well.

when you think it might be a close-call as to whether to be passive (call) or aggressive (raise) it is very likely that the aggro route is the better option.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Hi Bob:

It all comes down to "Have badly do they play?" If the answer is incredibly bad, and that's certainly the case in many games, then the immediate equity is there. By the way, because of the poker explosion, this is more true in today's games than ever before.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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Ed Miller argues that it does, and that is why he says that you must raise these hands. I happen to agree with him

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Me too. just limping on the button with AJo or KQo against a field of limpers is REALLY going to cost you money (in most games).

The more successful players on 2+2 would almost universally advocate raising in these situations.
The less successful and/or newer players are typically the one's who would be more likely to advocate limping.

This fact alone does not mean that raising with AJo here is DEFINITELY correct....but it's good enough for me to do it EVERY time.
and it's been working for me as well.

when you think it might be a close-call as to whether to be passive (call) or aggressive (raise) it is very likely that the aggro route is the better option.

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Sklansky in GTBOI advocates folding AJo in these types of games. (Assuming calling a hand "garbage' means you should fold it. Is he a less successful or newer player?

Also, I actually only play limit hold'em once in a blue moon. So I'm not a 'less successful' or newer player either if you are trying to indirectly paint me as so. I read all good poker books, whether or not I play the games. Something to learn from all.

Note, the last two posts have not addressed the discrepancy, which was the intent of the thread.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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Sklansky in GTBOI advocates folding AJo in these types of games. (Assuming calling a hand "garbage' means you should fold it. Is he a less successful or newer player?

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Yes...you have pointed this out already and this has been addressed already (several times)
In today's game where most players go too far with their hands it is advantageous to raise in these situations.

When Sklansky wrote that he was referrin to generally loose play pre-flop with semi-decent play post-flop.
As Mason pointed out (again)....the poker-explosion has resulted in more games where players take their hands too far (the game that SSHE addresses) and fewer games where players don't take their hands too far post-flop (the type of game that GTOBI is addressing).


I think this has already been stated quite a few times in this thread.