Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

okay....i'm seeing the light.



additionally....you might be able to steal it from QQ if any K or A hits the flop. But you'd have to be pretty lucky here of course...like K-high flop and your opponents have QQ and AQ.

Or A-high flop and your opponents have KQ and KK (and would actually be subject to laying down an under-pair...which isn't that impossible if you cap PF).


This isn't the reason to cap of coruse. Just pointing out that it doesn't HAVE to be an all under-card flop for you to win it obviously....there are still some slim possibilities even with an overcard out there.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it.

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PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation.
-James

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I agree with all of this. I was really shocked seeing so many people say folding was standard here.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

NOt sure what the controversy is - it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two. It's player relevant more than anything else - if the reraise comes from a guy I think is steaming a little, I cap, if he has been docile for the last ten minutes, I fold unless I know both of them will ride their cards to the river if I hit. BFD

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

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it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two.

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I think there is a big difference.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it.

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PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation.
-James

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I think this scenario really separates the looser TAGs and the tigher TAGs. Most of us don't play in games with small player pools and the metagame stuff doesn't really apply. I think your hand ranges may be a bit too broad given that the raisers were both in early position.

Didn't David and Mason cover this in one of their books? I recall them saying fold but I can't find it and don't feel like digging.

Pretty close given your hand ranges.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 26.9092 % 25.75% 01.15% { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 38.3336 % 36.91% 01.42% { 99+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3: 34.7572 % 33.90% 00.86% { JJ }

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

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it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two.

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I think there is a big difference.

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Oh Mr. Moderator, since I see little difference in the two, rather than stating your opinion - how about adding some insight as to which is the clear choice and why - please enlighten me.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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NOt sure what the controversy is - it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two. It's player relevant more than anything else - if the reraise comes from a guy I think is steaming a little, I cap, if he has been docile for the last ten minutes, I fold unless I know both of them will ride their cards to the river if I hit. BFD

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

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I certainly do not put folding ahead of calling.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

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First raiser is 23/11, reraiser is 22/9

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These two numbers have little to no relevance as to whether you should play your jacks here. If you are multitabling and thats all you know about them, you should fold. If you are one tabling and have more information about how they play postflop, you should play.

Basically, what you need to know is how these two players play "misses". If they pound their AK/AQ type hands after missing, if they bet them once, then give up, etc. If you have that information, you can play the jacks profitably. If all you know is that they play 22% of their hands and raise 9%, you can't, because you will just be guessing postflop.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation.
-James

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I think this scenario really separates the looser TAGs and the tigher TAGs. Most of us don't play in games with small player pools and the metagame stuff doesn't really apply. I think your hand ranges may be a bit too broad given that the raisers were both in early position.

Didn't David and Mason cover this in one of their books? I recall them saying fold but I can't find it and don't feel like digging.

Pretty close given your hand ranges.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 26.9092 % 25.75% 01.15% { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 38.3336 % 36.91% 01.42% { 99+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3: 34.7572 % 33.90% 00.86% { JJ }

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But online 50/100 games have far smaller player pools than lower limits from this, and that is the game that the OP cited. David and Mason were also referring to the live games of the nineties and earlier that played far less aggressively preflop on average than today's high limit online games.

Also, your EV calculations are helpful, but also misleading because they run hot and cold. For example, a lot of times AT or AJ will check fold the flop when it comes Q high against your jacks. Position and momentum go a long way even in high limit games. You can win a hand without reaching the showdown against every hand that saw the flop.

Do I fold jacks to a raise and a 3 bet from time to time? Yes, I do. Do I when a guy raises in middle position and another guy reraises in late middle position? Not as often, but I will. I am simply stating that when I play 50/100 and higher, and all I know about my opponents are those stats, I'm in there capping, if only because it's(at worst) an EV neutral proposition and it works towards giving me the aggressive image I benefit from at the table.
-James

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

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it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two.

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I think there is a big difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh Mr. Moderator, since I see little difference in the two, rather than stating your opinion - how about adding some insight as to which is the clear choice and why - please enlighten me.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

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1) Relax
2) I think saying that folding and cold capping are about the same needs a lot more explanation than saying that they aren't.