Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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In the absence of evidence that the pope had cheated by using scientific means, or that another person had even without the pope's knowledge, then yes I would tend to believe him.

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If the Pope told you that God told him to tell you to kill your family, would you believe him? (And would you do it?) Why or why not?

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This is obviously not what the OP's question is about, but rather about a miraculous event having already occurred. And I am not bound by injuctions, even from the pope, that are contrary to the moral law.

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So, you'd believe the Pope if he said he performed a miracle, but you'd not believe him when he told you that God told him to tell you to kill your family. Because, obviously, the Pope would be lying then, right? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Oh, and if God says to kill your family, then the moral thing to do would be kill your family -- just ask NotReady.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

Trolling is its own reward isn't it?

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

<font color="blue"> The analogy isn't quite right. It's more like giving a child a swiss army knife which they then use to kill people. </font>

I knew someone would bring this up. Still, if you give a kid who's too young a chemistry set. You shouldn't be surprised if someone gets hurt.

<font color="blue"> Plus, God didn't give us the gift of reason. Humans got reason by disobeying God and eating from the forbidden tree. </font>

Do you REALLY believe this? Then how did Eve <u>reason</u> with Adam and get him to eat from the forbidden tree?

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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<font color="blue"> Plus, God didn't give us the gift of reason. Humans got reason by disobeying God and eating from the forbidden tree. </font>

Do you REALLY believe this? Then how did Eve <u>reason</u> with Adam and get him to eat from the forbidden tree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice work. Plus he can't say Adam was just dazzled by her boobs cause he didn't know he was naked until he ate of the fruit.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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Trolling is its own reward isn't it?

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If you are saying that I'm "trolling", you are misinformed. I take it you don't have an answer to my question, so you tried hand waving. Nice try.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

Because every person in the world is capable of lying, there is no way to establish a miracle according to Hume's maxim, which is silly.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

This issue actually came up a couple years ago when they exhumed the body of Pope John XXIII. It had remained perfectly intact and people were making claims that the miracle of incorruptibility had taken place.

Now those who know about the current crisis in the Church know that it was John XXIII who initiated Vatican II and brought the problems to the forefront. He was a liberal prelate and not a saint.

When these "miraculous" reports surfaced, my first reaction was extreme skepticism bordering on outright disbelief. This is because the veracity of the Catholic religion is based on principles and Faith, not on miracles. If John XXIII truly was a saint, then it must be extremely easy to get into heaven.

Of course, a few weeks later we learned the truth. John XXIII had been embalmed and placed in an airtight and antibacterial coffin, consisting of three layers. Obviously this is was not a miracle, but made for a good test of principles.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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I knew someone would bring this up.

[/ QUOTE ] That generally happens when you give an incorrect analogy.

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Do you REALLY believe this? Then how did Eve <u>reason</u> with Adam and get him to eat from the forbidden tree?

[/ QUOTE ] I guess you don't work in sales. Reason has very little to do with persuasion. If you asked a 5 year old kid to please not do something, and they went ahead and did it behind your back, you'd still be mad or disappointed and you'd probably punish them, even though they can't reason very well.

BTW I'm an atheist. Just pointing out the obvious flaws in your commentary of the mainstream Christian account of human reason.

(For BluffThis - some Catholic cults have recently gone against 1700 years of history and changed their core beliefs for convenience ("um, oops, we got it wrong, Sorry to all the people we killed, maimed and oppressed. We got it right now though - trust us"). I don't see them as being 'mainstream' or even internally consistent. You need the apple to get to Jesus in any meaningful way. Dance baby, dance.)

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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Because every person in the world is capable of lying, there is no way to establish a miracle according to Hume's maxim, which is silly.

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"Testimony" is not just verbal account -- it can also be evidence. And, I would take the verbal account of some people far more seriously: James Randi, Michael Shermer, Penn &amp; Teller (well, just Penn I guess), and others like them.

My mom used to say: "believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear" -- no wonder I'm a skeptic.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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Because every person in the world is capable of lying, there is no way to establish a miracle according to Hume's maxim, which is silly.

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"Should be" thinking alway intrigues me. Why should there be a way to establish a miracle? and do you have any methods in mind?

thanks, luckyme

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

<font color="blue"> That generally happens when you give an incorrect analogy. </font>

The analogy is right, you just found a loophole. The bottom line is, God gave man intelligence and reason. Yet, He doesn't seem to want man to USE this reason when it comes to forming his beliefs and instead demands irrational faith. If you're an athiest (for the right reasons), then you should no doubt understand this because it is "THE" reason to be an athiest.


<font color="blue"> I guess you don't work in sales. </font>

Literally laughed out loud! I close people for a living.



<font color="blue"> Reason has very little to do with persuasion. </font>

You should follow a joke with a smiley or something to indicate when you're kidding.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

Heres another question. If there was empirical evidence proving that the big bang theory is how life began would you still keep your faith and believe in god.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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What is the prior probability of said miracle?

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Much lower than the prior probability that a Pope would lie.

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I've read some ludicrous statements on 2+2 before. But this is one is tops. I tip my hat.

Popes are not only congenital liars; the edifice of the office and its complete history is a blackened blatant lie besmirched with thievery, avarice, human butchery, bloodthirstiness, downright silliness, intolerance, and the most gorgeous heaps of convoluted imbecility known in the annals of human idiocy.

Two links for your reading and viewing pleasure:

True Catholics

Antipopes?


The Yin-Yang Man

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

Any objective scientific and psychological method which cannot determine a natural cause is the normal method for establishing the truth of a miracle.

One should do it because the falsehood of a perceived miracle could lead people astray and away from the truth. For example, a Pope performing miracles could lead to the worship of the Pope rather then the religion he represents. There are instances of demonic activity which seemed like "miracles" but were determined not to be by the Church. The end result of these false miracles was always the damnation of souls, even if it did not look like it from the outset.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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Any objective scientific and psychological method which cannot determine a natural cause is the normal method for establishing the truth of a miracle.

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So by miracle you just mean you don't know?

chez

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

Do we know anything really? We are all just puppets in a game.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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Do we know anything really? We are all just puppets in a game.

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Maybe, I'm happy to accept that I don't know.

chez

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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Do we know anything really? We are all just puppets in a game.

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I don't mind being in the game. It's the puppet part that would take all the fun out of it.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

I don't think the opinion of Penn and his ilk should be taken more seriously than certain religious figures. Professional skeptics earn their money trying to prove things wrong, so they always have a vested interest.

A religion may have a vested interest too, but the circumstances must be examined. For example, there is no financial or social benefit of going into a monastery. I would be far more inclined to believe the word of a monk than the "Amazing Randi".

The Plains Indians in America were very respectful of the Catholic "Black Robes" who lived and worked among them compared to the Protestant preachers and other worldy people whom they saw having self interest.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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Do we know anything really? We are all just puppets in a game.

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Punch and Judy, to Their Audience

Our puppets strings are hard to see,
So we perceive ourselves as free,
Convinced that no mere objects could
Behave in terms of bad and good.

To you, we mannequins seem less
than live, because our consciousness
is that of dummies, made to sit
on laps of gods and mouth their wit;

Are you, our transcendental gods,
likewise dangled from your rods,
and need, to show spontaneous charm,
some higher god's inserted arm?

We seem to form a nested set,
With each the next one's marionette,
Who, if you asked him, would insist,
that he's the last ventriloquist.

-Theodore Melnechuk

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do we know anything really? We are all just puppets in a game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Punch and Judy, to Their Audience

Our puppets strings are hard to see,
So we perceive ourselves as free,
Convinced that no mere objects could
Behave in terms of bad and good.

To you, we mannequins seem less
than live, because our consciousness
is that of dummies, made to sit
on laps of gods and mouth their wit;

Are you, our transcendental gods,
likewise dangled from your rods,
and need, to show spontaneous charm,
some higher god's inserted arm?

We seem to form a nested set,
With each the next one's marionette,
Who, if you asked him, would insist,
that he's the last ventriloquist.

-Theodore Melnechuk

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[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] nice quoting

chez

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

How would a Big Bang prove anything? Even if true the Big Bang had to come from a cause. Eventually everything comes from an uncaused cause, or God. There can be no such thing as existence without it.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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How would a Big Bang prove anything? Even if true the Big Bang had to come from a cause. Eventually everything comes from an uncaused cause, or God. There can be no such thing as existence without it.

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A higher-dimension universe, perhaps. One that has always existed and is not subject to the physical laws of our "sub-universe". This is one of several natural explanations -- the real answer is we don't know ... yet.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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I don't think the opinion of Penn and his ilk should be taken more seriously than certain religious figures. Professional skeptics earn their money trying to prove things wrong, so they always have a vested interest.

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The difference is that they don't claim to have divine revelation in that they can't be wrong. Actually, they say they can be wrong, so we should be skeptical of what they say also.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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Eventually everything comes from an uncaused cause, or God. There can be no such thing as existence without it.

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There is no evidence that I've been able to track down that there needs to be an initial cause. With time being merely our way of reducing space-time into something meaningful to us, it's hard to see why space-time itself, in however many dimensions it ends up existing needs to be restricted by our before-after thinking about one aspect of it that we concocted

luckyme.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

"There is no evidence that I've been able to track down that there needs to be an initial cause."

And what CAUSES you to think that?

The time and space dimension is not applicable in a philosophic debate, only a scientific one which minimizes a concept.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

"I don't mind being in the game. It's the puppet part that would take all the fun out of it."

I agree. When men sit and ponder at the free will of their actions, I'm banging their wives.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

I'm posting blind here.

I'm not religous but from a logic standpoint, consider this.

God supposedly created life. We can artificially create life. Do the people who believe in God believe any less that God originally created life?

My point being that just because humans can do some of the same things God supposedly can, doesn't mean the people who believe in God would be shaken by that revelation.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

Well they don't believe it less strongly, but they would if they were rational.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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How would a Big Bang prove anything? Even if true the Big Bang had to come from a cause. Eventually everything comes from an uncaused cause, or God. There can be no such thing as existence without it.

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Isn't this an example of one of your miracles, which means you just don't know.

chez

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

David, who cares if the Pope is a liar? Let's say he pulled a fast one on us all, does that in any way take away from the integrity(or lack thereof) of the Bible or any Christian precepts? No. And aside from the question being totally irrelevant, there isnt even enough information given about your hypothetical events for us to even speculate.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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<font color="blue"> The analogy isn't quite right. It's more like giving a child a swiss army knife which they then use to kill people. </font>

I knew someone would bring this up. Still, if you give a kid who's too young a chemistry set. You shouldn't be surprised if someone gets hurt.

<font color="blue"> Plus, God didn't give us the gift of reason. Humans got reason by disobeying God and eating from the forbidden tree. </font>

Do you REALLY believe this? Then how did Eve <u>reason</u> with Adam and get him to eat from the forbidden tree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Real quick here, if Adam and Eve got the ability to reason from eating the fruit, then Eve would be persuading Adam after eating the fruit herself.

But I disagree with the "reason" explanation. Genesis states that the tree gave the "Knowledge of Good and Evil", and said nothing about reason. So eating the fruit gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of right and wrong, not reason.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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What is the prior probability of said miracle?

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Much lower than the prior probability that a Pope would lie.

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I've read some ludicrous statements on 2+2 before. But this is one is tops. I tip my hat.

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http://forumimages.footballguys.com/.../confused1.gif

You must really trust the Pope a lot.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

id have to compare pot odds to price of a call.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

Isnt the creation of life the very center of religon. If we found out how life was created all questions would be answered. it would either be divine or not. how can u not say that it wouldnt shake the believers. if God came down and swooped me down to hell and said this is your faith if you dont start believing. shoots id go and buy a whole goat farm and start sacrificing nite and day.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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With time being merely our way of reducing space-time into something meaningful to us, it's hard to see why space-time itself, in however many dimensions it ends up existing needs to be restricted by our before-after thinking about one aspect of it that we concocted

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It's called Time's Arrow, and its not concocted. Ask Stephen Hawking if you don't believe me.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

Even so, that would do nothing to deter the uncaused cause. It just adds links in the chain.

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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It's called Time's Arrow, and its not concocted. Ask Stephen Hawking if you don't believe me.

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Hawkings introduced me to positivism, so he's not your man to try and bolster any claim about what is actually going on out there. Here's one of many of his comments -
"...and what we call real &lt;time&gt; is just an idea we invent to help us desribe what we think the universe is like."

luckyme

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

Try this then. It is a truly excellent book.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/03...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others
 

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Even so, that would do nothing to deter the uncaused cause. It just adds links in the chain.

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As far as I can tell, there is no inherent contradiction between the big bang and the idea that God created the universe out of nothing. If I understand the theory correctly, at the moment of the big bang the universe was infinitely small. There is no discernible difference between that and "nothing", is there?