Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

We think differently about the way other people think in this situation. I think she was tickled pink to not be put in tough spots against a tricky aggressive player. I am with Gigabet that she would need a huge hand here to call.

Your line of thinking is more cash game oriented than tourney, IMO. I could be wrong though. I don't know the player in question.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

isn't that interesting that a tight player gets as much action than an agressive player? If you feel you can playback at a LAG because he certainly has nothing and you'll put the weak tight to the test because he will lay it down, that makes a case to play tight.

So if you build a weak tight image you can make a huge pot without holding the nuts. Isn't that weird?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
All,

One thing there hasn't been much comment on is her play. I think her flop bet was really key to this hand and was great.

If she bets pot-ish here, Giga may well just be done with the hand.

If she checks behind, the stacks make it awkward for Giga to make a real serious play for this pot without taking an absurd risk. Maybe he takes a turn stab, but I don't see how she ends up stacking him.

I think her line, especially given the image she had, was really great. Perhaps she too was setting the stage for a play.

[/ QUOTE ]

great point, one I certainly overlooked.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]

Great post, I love the line and the reasoning. It's hard not to agree with you assessment that she is only calling with those two hands.

If she raises the turn, do you move in over the top? Or is your turn bet designed to get a show of weakness before you push the river (making it more likely you aren't gonna walk into a monster).

I ask because I see this play late in MTT's online by you and a few of your close friends. Turn lead and if not raises, big push knowing that you are not against the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused why you think this a good line. Gigabet played the hand in a way to get minimum information postflop but maximum opportunity to trap himself.

I think giga is in a very ambigious situation when the river card falls and should conisder shutting down, or making another weird-looking continuation bet and fold to a push.

It's also worth considering that JJ Liu mucked KK faceup earlier with the hope of getting someone to try to bluff her off a big pair, like gigabet did, later on. I think she's calling with AK and AA. Edit: I guess Diablo posted the same point at the same time I was. Damn you diablo!

I really don't think this is an important play to be making at this stage in the tournament.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't know who this JJ is, but it is not uncommon in both cash and tourney situations to play in a seemingly weak-tight manner for a while with the goal of getting someone to push you around later.


[/ QUOTE ]

From CardPlayer Player of the Year Standings for 2005:

Joanne "J.J." Liu
From: Palo Alto, CA
Rank: 353
Total Points: 762
Total Winnings: $174,710
Total Final Tables: 4

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Great post, I love the line and the reasoning. It's hard not to agree with you assessment that she is only calling with those two hands.

If she raises the turn, do you move in over the top? Or is your turn bet designed to get a show of weakness before you push the river (making it more likely you aren't gonna walk into a monster).

I ask because I see this play late in MTT's online by you and a few of your close friends. Turn lead and if not raises, big push knowing that you are not against the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused why you think this a good line. Gigabet played the hand in a way to get minimum information postflop but maximum opportunity to trap himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this entirely. Gig has all the information he needs to make this play. He's decided that she's going to fold everything but KK/66 here. When you figure that her range can be QQ+/AK, maybe to include JJ, then I think this is good. He had enough information to decide it was a high-probability play and went for it. Unfortunately it turns out she had the only conceivable hand there that he thought she'd call with.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately it turns out she had the only conceivable hand there that he thought she'd call with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely you are kidding when you use language like that.

There are only a handful of hands that a player described as she was can have in this spot, and she calls with MOST of them.

Just because she folded KK faceup on a paired board earlier in the tournament, does not mean that she's going to fold TPTK or AA in this spot.

Gigabet didnt play the hand in a way that would convince any backboned player that AK or AA is no good here, so the only hand that she might have re-raised preflop and played in the way she did postflop, is QQ and JJ.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately it turns out she had the only conceivable hand there that he thought she'd call with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely you are kidding when you use language like that.

There are only a handful of hands that a player described as she was can have in this spot, and she calls with MOST of them.

Just because she folded KK faceup on a paired board earlier in the tournament, does not mean that she's going to fold TPTK or AA in this spot.

Gigabet didnt play the hand in a way that would convince any backboned player that AK or AA is no good here, so the only hand that she might have re-raised preflop and played in the way she did postflop, is QQ and JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gigabet said he had talked to her about hands before, and had an accurate read on her. I find it funny that you think your uninformed guess of her calling range is more accurate than gigabets.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny that you think your uninformed guess of her calling range is more accurate than gigabets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it funny that you think Gigabet's interpretation of her calling range is somehow powerful enough to override common sense. We are dealing with a poker game, not some kind of supernnatural occurence here.

Furthermore, even if the calling range he has assigned her is accurate, he gave himself no chance, the way he played it, to uncover what she might actually be holding.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny that you think your uninformed guess of her calling range is more accurate than gigabets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it funny that you think Gigabet's interpretation of her calling range is somehow powerful enough to override common sense. We are dealing with a poker game, not some kind of supernnatural occurence here.

Furthermore, even if the calling range he has assigned her is accurate, he gave himself no chance, the way he played it, to uncover what she might actually be holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Firstly, she folded KK on a dry board before. Secondly, gigabet has been playing passively against her before and they have mutual respect for eachother. Third, they the two bigstacks on the table.

Tell me what would be your way to uncover what she might be holding? The stacks arent deep enough for this, and gigabet chose a good percentage play that would win him a lot of chips quite often.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, she folded KK on a dry board before. Secondly, gigabet has been playing passively against her before and they have mutual respect for eachother. Third, they the two bigstacks on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because she folded KK on a dry board before, doesn't mean she's going to fold AA, or TPTK, here.

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me what would be your way to uncover what she might be holding? The stacks arent deep enough for this, and gigabet chose a good percentage play that would win him a lot of chips quite often.

[/ QUOTE ]

If gigabet wants to represent a hand that beats AA, that beats TPTK, and make it seem like he "obviously" has it, do his actions really paint that piture? Would he have really played A6, 22, AA, or any other hand that has her beat the way he did preflop? Isn't that the issue? He thinks she'll fold AA and AK, but why?

I am not criticizing gigabet here. I've tried many times to execute plays like this in crucial spots/big pots in tournaments and then gone back to realize the way I set up the play didn't make enough sense to work. I think this is one of those spots where his combined actions don't work together well enough to get villain off of the hands gigabet thinks she will fold.

I believe there are problems with the hand that run deeper than, Oops, I ran into the nuts.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
If gigabet wants to represent a hand that beats AA, that beats TPTK, and make it seem like he "obviously" has it, do his actions really paint that piture? Would he have really played A6, 22, AA, or any other hand that has her beat the way he did preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he is certainly capable of playing 56s 67s A6 etc like this pf.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

"Date / Time: 2005-12-14 13:17:00
Title: New Chip Leader -- Darrell "Gigabet" Dicken Doubles Through Patrik Antonius
Log: Darrell "Gigabet" Dicken raises preflop, Patrik Antonius reraises, and Dicken calls. The flop comes Js-7d-5d, Dicken bets out, and after a long period of thought, Antonius moves all in. Dicken immediately calls with 7c-5h (two pair). Antonius shows Kd-Jd (pair of jacks, flush draw), and he has a ton of outs to win this hand. The turn card is the 9h, and the river is the As. Antonius fails to improve, and Darrell Dicken doubles up in the biggest pot of the tournament to about $885,000 in chips. "

I think there are a lot of hands with a 6 thats in Gigas preflop range here.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

But why risk 80% of your stack when you have such a healthy chip position? I think the tournament situation should determine for a player not to attempt this. Even if she only calls w/ KK or 66 etc...

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, he is certainly capable of playing 56s 67s A6 etc like this pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay great. So what is she betting the flop and calling on the turn with?

Didnt gigabet say that the unspoken dynamic between the two of them was "I know u know that when I bet, I have it. We have too much to lose to be messing around."? I think I recall reading that.

Well, he can't have it both ways. When she re-raises him preflop, she's saying "I have a hand." When she bets the flop, she is saying "I have a hand." And when she smooth calls the turn, there is a good chance she is now saying "Okay, so you want to bluff off a bunch of chips to me? Be my guest." Meanwhile, gigabet isn't really holding up his end of the conversation.

Ricky Grivalja said something great in his WPT interview a couple years ago. (I'm paraphrasing) "You need to do everything you possibly can to win every hand but also realize when you can no longer win the hand." At some point, giga may have wanted to consider that.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, he is certainly capable of playing 56s 67s A6 etc like this pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay great. So what is she betting the flop and calling on the turn with?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you asking this question again? AA-JJ AK

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Roman, I will concede that if JJ Liu folds everything but KK and 66, this is a great play.

In the real world, she calls with a lot more than that.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
Roman, I will concede that if JJ Liu folds everything but KK and 66, this is a great play.

In the real world, she calls with a lot more than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know that? These are two bigstacks with respect for eachother showing lots of strength, can you at least admit its possible for her to fold AK here?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If gigabet wants to represent a hand that beats AA, that beats TPTK, and make it seem like he "obviously" has it, do his actions really paint that piture? Would he have really played A6, 22, AA, or any other hand that has her beat the way he did preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he is certainly capable of playing 56s 67s A6 etc like this pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am anywhere near not as good a player as Gigabet and am not a LAG. I am not that good at figuring out opponent's psychology, but when I bluff I want to represent something that I could reasonably have that has what I think my opponent(s) has beat.

Now the way JJ played this hand, it is likely she has AK or JJ-AA. What is Gigabet representing? He could have a 6 the way he plays, but it is not likely, particularly considering there are 2 of them on the board. He could have AK, KK, or AA, but there is a good chance he would have put in a 3rd raise preflop with those hands.

It is sort of like reasonable doubt for a jury. She could be beaten, but it is not likely enough that she is going to fold.

JJ is presumably a professional player who plays major tournaments regularly. She may be weak/tight, but she is not that weak/tight to make a fold likely.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Roman, I will concede that if JJ Liu folds everything but KK and 66, this is a great play.

In the real world, she calls with a lot more than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know that? These are two bigstacks with respect for eachother showing lots of strength, can you at least admit its possible for her to fold AK here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll gladly admit it's possible for her to fold AK if you admit it's ALSO possible for her to Gracz him with, say, QQ.

In the short time that I've been playing these big buyin events, I've seen all kindsa stuff.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

I think a major part of where Giga thinks he can get JJ Liu to release AK on the end would have to do with the turn bet. It looks strange after the checkcall on the flop and puts Liu on the defensive.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
isn't that interesting that a tight player gets as much action than an agressive player? If you feel you can playback at a LAG because he certainly has nothing and you'll put the weak tight to the test because he will lay it down, that makes a case to play tight.

So if you build a weak tight image you can make a huge pot without holding the nuts. Isn't that weird?

[/ QUOTE ]

*cough*

I agree with shaniac in that I think this hand had to end on the turn.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Strange plays usually inspire people to make marginal calls, not big folds, Clayton.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

I have to say that she played this hand perfectly; probably she even acted in a way (tells) to convice Gigabet she didn't have a strong holding; because it's clear Gigabet could't read her at all in this hand.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

I totally agree with everything you have said Shaniac.

I think Gigabet played this hand horribly. Even Michael Jordan screws up sometimes (and by no means am I implying he is the MJ of poker). Just because it's him we have to praise him and understand his thinking?

She raised preflop against him (which means something). She made a *weak continuation bet (which means something). She called his turn weird bet (which means something). Why does Gigabet not slowdown or shut down? I don't get it.

Also want to add. Someone mentioned that Gigabet spoke with JJ earlier and he had a take on her game/line of thinking. Maybe this JJ played him for the sucker? Is that not possible? Who knows, all I'm getting at is that I think JJ played the hand wonderful and deserves a lot of credit.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/play...a=r&n=1697

The more I think about this hand and the player in question, the less I buy Gigabet's assertion that the only hands she will pay off with here are KK or 6 or turned fullhouse.

I'm in agreement with pretty much everything shaniac said, except the notion that she may have been setting up this play. I find that hard to believe, but not impossible.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

shaniac,

Good to see you copying my thoughts. Keep it up and maybe I can teach you how to be a decent tourney player.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
shaniac,

Good to see you copying my thoughts. Keep it up and maybe I can teach you how to be a decent tourney player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was hoping you'd teach me the secret to living the life of a man of wealth and taste.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

When I heard she showed KK after she folded to Laak's "move," I thought, "why the heck would she show?"

She must have been doing backflips throughout this hand with Gigabet.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

I think Giga's read is being questioned more than the actual play. I assumed that his read was accurate, and since he would make a more accurate guess of her calling range on the river then any of us, I think you simply have to take his word for it and judge the play based on the read he had.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/play...a=r&n=1697

The more I think about this hand and the player in question, the less I buy Gigabet's assertion that the only hands she will pay off with here are KK or 6 or turned fullhouse.

I'm in agreement with pretty much everything shaniac said, except the notion that she may have been setting up this play. I find that hard to believe, but not impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Gigabet presented it accurately. There was no way AA or AK was folding, but 99-JJ or AQ probably would fold.

It seems like he misread the betting pattern on the hand and the relation to the board and her likely reraising hands. Also his opponent probably did a good job of convincing him she did not have a strong hand and was weaktight in general. However, making a play like this against a tight opponent will frequently work.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think Giga's read is being questioned more than the actual play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this seems natural. The only thing left to question about the play if you assume the read is how many hands she could have gotten to the river with at all, and then it's simple math. Discussing this hand without being able to discuss the read is pointless.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

The one thing I've been pondering about was his read that the rest of the table knew he was super-loose preflop, but only bet with the near nuts postflop. I think a lot of players might not make that distinction, and would still put him in the LAG/tricky category. I know I probably would.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Is this a case of the old "wrong place at the wrong time" cliche? Plan a bank robbery for years and just as you're peelin' out with the loot, the SWAT team van drives by.

Gigabet: Established an image of loose pre-flop play combined with passive post-flop play. An image he obviously worked to create a situation exactly like this. One where he could manipulate the pot and his opponent using bet size and table image to force JJ out with the best hand. The way he played the hand out and based on his read, she could conceivably lay down a range of hands, all of which were best (JJ-AA, and AK). We can't criticize the play of Giga here, he set an elaborate trap, and trusted himself and his reads. When it comes down to it, you have nothing else to count on but yourself and the reads you've developed throughout the tournament. A victim of bad luck here?? OR...a victim of a better player...on this hand anyway...

JJ: Established a weak tight image. Showed the ability to lay down a big hand in the face of heat. However, what better reason for such an image than to use it against an opponent attempting to bully her?? Her bet on the flop is key. Without a sizeable pot, there is no reason for Giga to continue with this elaborate bluff. The 1/4 pot bet on the flop could be construed as a probe bet, and attempt to win a small pot but allow an exit should she face some heat. The rest just fell into place for her, she really did nothing more of significance after that, as Giga played right into her. The smooth call turn could have been suspicious, and could have slowed down giga, but in his defense, she hasn't given any indication of supreme strength here...she could have pushed the turn, but when that didn't happen, giga could be confident she's on the defensive and looking simply for a check-check and showdown on the river.

All in all, I think Giga was outplayed on this hand, but through no fault of his own, because this play SHOULD have worked. And I know i'm a lot better at playing with the nuts than I am at setting an elaborate bluff. And maybe that's what happened for JJ. And there are some great posts here (shaniac, Diablo, roman, lots more). I'm truly on the fence here and still flopping back and forth.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately it turns out she had the only conceivable hand there that he thought she'd call with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely you are kidding when you use language like that.

There are only a handful of hands that a player described as she was can have in this spot, and she calls with MOST of them.

Just because she folded KK faceup on a paired board earlier in the tournament, does not mean that she's going to fold TPTK or AA in this spot.

Gigabet didnt play the hand in a way that would convince any backboned player that AK or AA is no good here, so the only hand that she might have re-raised preflop and played in the way she did postflop, is QQ and JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say she had the only hand she'd call with. She might call with AA/AK, you're absolutely right. I said she held the only hand that giga thought she'd call with. There's a gigantic difference there. He had a read and went with it, and unfortunately ran into the only hand he thought he'd lose to.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a case of the old "wrong place at the wrong time" cliche? Plan a bank robbery for years and just as you're peelin' out with the loot, the SWAT team van drives by.

Gigabet: Established an image of loose pre-flop play combined with passive post-flop play. An image he obviously worked to create a situation exactly like this. One where he could manipulate the pot and his opponent using bet size and table image to force JJ out with the best hand. The way he played the hand out and based on his read, she could conceivably lay down a range of hands, all of which were best (JJ-AA, and AK). We can't criticize the play of Giga here, he set an elaborate trap, and trusted himself and his reads. When it comes down to it, you have nothing else to count on but yourself and the reads you've developed throughout the tournament. A victim of bad luck here?? OR...a victim of a better player...on this hand anyway...

JJ: Established a weak tight image. Showed the ability to lay down a big hand in the face of heat. However, what better reason for such an image than to use it against an opponent attempting to bully her?? Her bet on the flop is key. Without a sizeable pot, there is no reason for Giga to continue with this elaborate bluff. The 1/4 pot bet on the flop could be construed as a probe bet, and attempt to win a small pot but allow an exit should she face some heat. The rest just fell into place for her, she really did nothing more of significance after that, as Giga played right into her. The smooth call turn could have been suspicious, and could have slowed down giga, but in his defense, she hasn't given any indication of supreme strength here...she could have pushed the turn, but when that didn't happen, giga could be confident she's on the defensive and looking simply for a check-check and showdown on the river.

All in all, I think Giga was outplayed on this hand, but through no fault of his own, because this play SHOULD have worked. And I know i'm a lot better at playing with the nuts than I am at setting an elaborate bluff. And maybe that's what happened for JJ. And there are some great posts here (shaniac, Diablo, roman, lots more). I'm truly on the fence here and still flopping back and forth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis. I think Gigabet was carried away with setting up the elaborate bluff and didn't pay enough attention to the action and board on this hand.

I think the play looks worse than it is based on Gigabet's assertion that she would not call with AK or AA. What makes this play powerful is that she probably need atleast top pair or an over pair to call. It is possible QQ or JJ would call, but an awful lot of hands are folding.

I am sure Gigabet's aggressive approach does work frequently, or he wouldn't be back in second place. Of course getting allin against 2 players with AA helped.

This hand give a feeling of the strength of Gigabet's play, even though he made a bad misread.

There are a lot of people who are afraid to make a semibluff for all their chips. Look at the play Varkonyi made where he made a 3rd raise allin with QTs versus Hellmuth button versus BB. He had the worse hand, but it was a good play, it doubled him up, and helped set up some bad calls by his opponent's when he had big hands later on.

I know Varkonyi got lucky and Moneymaker got lucky, but making well timed big bluffs and semibluffs helped weak players like that win the big one.

Here Gigabet made a pure bluff for almost all his chips. It didn't work because his opponent had the nuts, but it works pretty often. A lot of people don't have the nerve to make that kind of play. He also picked a spot and set the play up with his prior play and bets on other streets. Not only do you win the pot frequently with plays like that, but you get a lot more action when you push and you are not bluffing.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think her line, especially given the image she had, was really great. Perhaps she too was setting the stage for a play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. Most of the players in these events, who end up at my table for any length of time, end up basing their long term strategy around a way to take advantage of my seemingly reckless play. I usually can dodge the bullets and use it against them. However, JJ clearly got the best of me here. Her flop bet definitely was made with the intention of disguising the strength of her hand. She knows that she is getting something with her hand, if she checks behind, she knows that I will lead the turn, I rarely check it twice, so her having that hand while I am in the hand has inherent value, she however, was able to induce me to take over the business of controlling the size of the pot, by making the seemingly weak looking flop bet. I read the bet correctly, that she was "relatively" strong, and acted accordingly. With my read, that she may have well implanted, I knew that getting her off of the hand would be relatively easily done, if I could gain control of the pot. Once that happened, JJ was able to let me do all of her dirty work. Clearly her flop bet was engineered to get me to put alot more chips in than I would otherwise had she checked behind on the flop.

I'll bet she didn't think that I would be foolish enough to put as many as I did though. Probably make her alot more careful about the spots that she picks when involved with me. Doesn't matter how much you think a player is bluffing, when first place equals a new lifestyle for most people and the current spot can just catch most up on their late bills, calling that bet takes alot of courage without a very strong holding, even if the player in question induced me to make the "obvious" bluff.

As I was helping her stack her newly acquired million chips, I complemented her on her play, and mentioned that I had yet to give all of my chips to a nicer person. She was very graceful after the hand was over, and maybe even felt a little bad about me losing so many chips. I made certain that she knew that I really felt as if she deserved the chips, for her well thought out play. There is nothing bad that can be said of this woman, and she definitely deserves all of the good things that came together in this tournament for her. I would definitely enjoy playing HU with her, although, with my newly revised read of her thinking, she may find it quite a bit more difficult to get the chips from me.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

GL Darrell. Must be surreal.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
That 75 hand wasn't posted correctly, BTW. I did not call an all in bet, I would have folded in that situation. Preflop action is described well enough, but postflop here is how it happened. I checked, Patrick bet 20k, I made it 60k, he then reraised me to 160k. I then pushed, and he instantly called. Immediately I thought he was going to turn over top set when he called so quickly, and was relieved to see KJ. Very nice to win the toss in that spot, but with stacks as deep as ours were, I think that he would have the presence of mind to fold that hand, or others similar. I never am pushing in that spot, against a good player, with the intention of getting called by a worse hand, I just wanted to pick up the pot. I don't feel comfortable playing that large of a pot, when not in position, to the river with a hand as vulnerable as mine was. Patrick definitely is going to put enough pressure on me in later streets to make it nearly impossible to think that my hand could be good, unless it improves.

[/ QUOTE ]

dear god, get some sleep man

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

I'm just now getting around to seeing this thread and I'm intrigued by it. Some people seem to just take completely for granted that Gigabet will have the perfect read in every situation at all times. I believe, from what I've heard, that Darrell is an extremely talented player and I know that he thought this hand through. But, why isn't it possible that his read is off here? I've played with JJ several times before. Calling her weak/tight is laughable. In my experiences with her, she is as loose/aggro as it gets. Darrell gave you one hand and some conversation to suggest that she might be willing to fold a big hand and this is what justifies a huge bluff against a (supposedly weak/tight)player who showed strength preflop, on the flop, and on the turn? I agree with Shaniac here. I think you just have to give up on the river. It looks to me like she's said "Ok, I'm not folding this hand, keep firing if you will."

Also, let's add this into the equation... When she folded the KK face up against Laak, it was to something like the 4th raise and it was on the flop. That is a much different situation than we're talking about here. I think everyone is discounting her turn call of 200k way too much.