Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about the victims of those who cause auto accidents while under the influence of drugs similar to those caused by driving while drunk?

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Throw the book at them?

I think drunk driving laws should be much harsher (in a law class my senior year of high school, we went to the court house and saw TWO FIFTH TIME drunk drivers).

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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Your examples are awful. Rape is not victimless. Recreational drug use is.


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Having seen two friends' lives consumed and ultimately ended by heroin, and their families' lives destroyed in the process, this is the most clueless, ignorant statement I've read on this board to date.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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If people want to do drugs, they will do them regardless of the presence of state intervention. The reason people don’t do drugs is because they are aware of the adverse effects, not for fear of the law.

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This is very clueless and ignorant as well, lacking any understanding of why people abuse substances.

Given legal, cheap drugs like crystal meth and heroin, many people who would otherwise never touch a drug in their life would succumb to the temptation upon losing their job, being divorced, having a loved one die, etc and wanting to drown the pain away. The reason most regular folks avoid this right now is a) fear of the law and b) no access. Legalizing drugs eliminates both of these deterrents.

Many people infact succumb to their depression with alcohol and in rare cases even commit suicide. And infact alcohol can consume one's life and ruin it as well, but that is a different story. Resorting to easy-to-find heroin or meth to eliminate pain would lead to a chance, lets say an incredibly good one, that your life will be entirely consumed by the drug with little chance for recovery.

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The legalization of drugs may increase addiction somewhat, not as much as you think though.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again this is entirely ignorant to not only common sense but to empirical evidence as well. Just look at countries like the Netherlands who have legalized pot and seen pot use among even 10 years olds increase 300+%. Well, at least Needle Park is open and thriving.

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Poor example. One is providing a product which people demand, the other is promoting the illegal use of force.

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Murder for hire is a very demanded service in both the US and the world. Who are you to tell someone how to run their business? By illegalizing it, you limit its supply and drive up profits for hitmen, providing them financial incentive.

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Drunk drivers hurt other people, against their will.

[/ QUOTE ]

And drug users never hurt other people against their will? Clearly you know very little of drugs and their effects.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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This is actually pretty good. When people demand something, the market will always provide it, whether legally or illegally.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is, again, unbelievably ignorant to common sense. Drug use is demanded because of temptation. Yes, temptation will always exist. Simply because there is demand for something doesn't mean we should legally and cheaply supply it. There are black markets for child porn, murder for hire, tax fraud outlets, and yes, drugs. To argue that drugs are a victimless crime is even further ignorant to any real life experience with drugs or drug users.

Step out of the abstracts for a moment and maybe think about the day in the life of a helpless addict.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Your examples are awful. Rape is not victimless. Recreational drug use is.


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Having seen two friends' lives consumed and ultimately ended by heroin, and their families' lives destroyed in the process, this is the most clueless, ignorant statement I've read on this board to date.

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No. That was their decision. People should think before they do heroin, and if they don't, they don't deserve to live. We shouldn't take away things that are dangerous to the user who makes a conscious choice to use them. We should try to educate and help people make informed decisions, which is pretty much the exact opposite of what America does with drugs. If you need to be protected from yourself, your life isn't worth much anyway.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
Step out of the abstracts for a moment and maybe think about the day in the life of a helpless addict.

[/ QUOTE ]

Addicts aren't helpless.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

You are totally correct, hmpoker. Anyone that makes a mistake in life deserves to die.

And clearly, because you say so, children aren't affected when their worthless father OD's. And clearly a parent isn't affected at all when a worthless son or daughter ODs. Drug use is 100% totally victimless.

The economy works better with these irrational decision makers 6 feet under where they rightly belong. Who couldn't agree with hmpoker, that anyone who ever tries heroin is a complete moron who doesnt deserve to live.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Look. A good society should offer freedom to its members (if you disagree with that, I'm done talking with you). People should have the freedom to do what they want, provided that it doesn't do obvious harm to others, or infringe on others' freedom.

There are caveats, though. By offering freedom to the masses, you give them the freedom to make bad decisions. And unfortunately, many people have other people who are dependant on them, so messing your life up may, yes I agree, mess up the life of another. This is a very unfortunate thing because to create a social structure that allows one to exercise freedom without endangering others is almost impossible.

However, if the solution is to just take freedom away, I think life becomes worse. Get rid of alcohol, no more abusive alcoholic parents. Get rid of personal transportation, no more auto accidents. Get rid of tobacco products, no more lung cancer. Get rid of violent video games and song lyrics, no more school shootings (as the media would have had us believe six years ago). Get rid of airplanes, no more terrorist hijackings. You see where this is going.

Drug use belongs in this category. It is a certain freedom that can bring about good, if used correctly, or bad, if used improperly. You bring up heroin constantly, and I agree, that's on the worse end of the drug spectrum, but drugs, for the most part, don't [censored] up your life unless you let them. (I have yet to hear of one good argument for why cannabis should be illegal)

And lastly, the war on drugs hasn't DONE anything useful! It puts people in jail when they aren't doing anything damaging to society. (Should a heroin addict be thrown in jail? Is that going to be good for him and his family?) Drugs are still as popular as they ever were, and as they will ever be. They are still readily available, despite Bush's war and propaganda. There is ALWAYS going to be a high demand for it. All the war on drugs has done is A) grossly inflate the price of drugs, B) allow substances to be sold unregulated, making them much more dangerous to the user, C) cause the profits to go to gansters, drug lords and criminals when it could be going to legitimate American businesspersons, and D) disseminate false information about drugs, making the citizens' decisions more uninformed.

I admit that it was a bit rash for me to say that all these people deserve to die. However, if we are to live with freedom, we have to accept the consequences of our actions. I don't want to live in a world where I have to be protected from myself, and neither should you.

P.S. Look at prohibition. Did that accomplish anything useful?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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Many people infact succumb to their depression with alcohol and in rare cases even commit suicide. And infact alcohol can consume one's life and ruin it as well, but that is a different story.

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You need to explain this one to us. What makes alcohol worse? Your reasoning for why drugs should be illegal is very similar to the arguments used by those in favor of Prohibition and I think we all know how well that worked out.

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Again this is entirely ignorant to not only common sense but to empirical evidence as well. Just look at countries like the Netherlands who have legalized pot and seen pot use among even 10 years olds increase 300+%. Well, at least Needle Park is open and thriving.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have already pointed out that underage drinking is rampant. Is that a good reason to outlaw alcohol? Why not? Shouldn't the parents of these 10 year olds know where their kids are and what they're doing?

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Murder for hire is a very demanded service in both the US and the world. Who are you to tell someone how to run their business? By illegalizing it, you limit its supply and drive up profits for hitmen, providing them financial incentive.

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Drug use is consensual. Murder is not. They are not comparable.

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And drug users never hurt other people against their will? Clearly you know very little of drugs and their effects.

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If drug users should not be exempt from laws against hurting others. Like I said to BluffTHIS!, the laws against drunk driving should also apply to drugs if they're legalized. Drug users may hurt others while using. If so, throw the book at them and get them counseling. Why do you feel you have any right to restrict the freedom of other people?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If people want to do drugs, they will do them regardless of the presence of state intervention. The reason people don’t do drugs is because they are aware of the adverse effects, not for fear of the law.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is very clueless and ignorant as well, lacking any understanding of why people abuse substances.

Given legal, cheap drugs like crystal meth and heroin, many people who would otherwise never touch a drug in their life would succumb to the temptation upon losing their job, being divorced, having a loved one die, etc and wanting to drown the pain away. The reason most regular folks avoid this right now is a) fear of the law and b) no access. Legalizing drugs eliminates both of these deterrents.

Many people infact succumb to their depression with alcohol and in rare cases even commit suicide. And infact alcohol can consume one's life and ruin it as well, but that is a different story. Resorting to easy-to-find heroin or meth to eliminate pain would lead to a chance, lets say an incredibly good one, that your life will be entirely consumed by the drug with little chance for recovery.

[/ QUOTE ]

People do things because they want to, not because they are tempted. I heard this propaganda back in 5th grade DARE classes. Some people will do drugs, others won’t... at least everyone will have a choice should they be legalized.

Furthermore, are you saying that the entire concept of demand in economics is based on temptation and not voluntary choice? Humans can make their own decisions. Why are you so against this? If people want to harm themselves, that is their prerogative. Ice cream is bad for you. Should we ban that? Alcohol and tobacco too. Ban those?


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[ QUOTE ]
The legalization of drugs may increase addiction somewhat, not as much as you think though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again this is entirely ignorant to not only common sense but to empirical evidence as well. Just look at countries like the Netherlands who have legalized pot and seen pot use among even 10 years olds increase 300+%. Well, at least Needle Park is open and thriving.

[/ QUOTE ]
Two issues:
1) Cultural – Pot isn’t viewed as a bad thing there.
2) Because of issue #1, parents will be very lenient in dictating their children’s actions regarding the use of marijuana.


[ QUOTE ]
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Poor example. One is providing a product which people demand, the other is promoting the illegal use of force.

[/ QUOTE ]

Murder for hire is a very demanded service in both the US and the world. Who are you to tell someone how to run their business? By illegalizing it, you limit its supply and drive up profits for hitmen, providing them financial incentive.

[/ QUOTE ]

So involuntary is the same as voluntary. I will take note of that in future debates with you.


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we're not paying as much to keep so many prisoners alive.

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This doesn’t add to your argument, because likewise we could legalize drunk driving and not have to pay so much money to officers and lawyers and judges and jails that punish drunk drivers. That doesn’t mean we should legalize drunk driving.

[/ QUOTE ]
Drunk drivers hurt other people, against their will.

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And drug users never hurt other people against their will? Clearly you know very little of drugs and their effects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both of your responses here are out of context. The original comment is referring to the people who are in jail for using and dealing drugs, not harming people because of them. You proceeded to compare that to drunk driving (again the voluntary and involuntary thing you seem to be having trouble with), which I corrected. You then responded again out of context.

As for your most recent response, I am all for punishing those who violate other’s property -- whether it is their life, autonomy, or possessions.



[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is actually pretty good. When people demand something, the market will always provide it, whether legally or illegally.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is, again, unbelievably ignorant to common sense. Drug use is demanded because of temptation. Yes, temptation will always exist. Simply because there is demand for something doesn't mean we should legally and cheaply supply it. There are black markets for child porn, murder for hire, tax fraud outlets, and yes, drugs. To argue that drugs are a victimless crime is even further ignorant to any real life experience with drugs or drug users.

Step out of the abstracts for a moment and maybe think about the day in the life of a helpless addict.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please get this through your head. Drug use is voluntary. Murder is not. Please refrain from comparing the two.
By your definition of demand, the reason I want to buy a pack of gum is out of temptation. I don’t buy the gum out of temptation; I buy it because I have voluntarily chosen to. Should gum be illegalized by the state, I would still demand the gum and someone would supply the gum in a black market. This changes nothing, except for the fact that it is more of a hassle for me to get gum and I have to spend more money on it. I am still going to chew gum though, no matter what the state has to say about it’s legality.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
You need to explain this one to us. What makes alcohol worse? Your reasoning for why drugs should be illegal is very similar to the arguments used by those in favor of Prohibition and I think we all know how well that worked out.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can enjoy alcohol every weekend, have a good time, and no one gets hurt. I cant enjoy crystal meth on the weekends in between work, school, and my family. Period. Duh. Did you really need that explained or are you playing dumb to make some kind of point?


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I have already pointed out that underage drinking is rampant.

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Here's another no brainer. If alcohol became legal to all ages, would underage drinking go up a lot or go down a lot? Big deal? Maybe, but we're not talking about alcohol, you want to legalize all drugs. Now, think about this one - if crystal meth became legal, would use of crystal meth go up a lot, or down a lot?

Its just difficult to argue with people who have never seen a meth or heroine addict and think its noble to fight for a cause to let people exercise their God given rights to ruin their lives and the lives of everyone that loves them and/or depends on them with these drugs - rather than do the sensible thing and try as best as we can as a society to prevent as many people as possible from being lured into these temptations by preemptively eliminating as much supply as possible and making people aware of their effects.

Allow me to quote a poster from OOT:

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A friend of mine that got hooked on meth has lost his wife and two kids, a succesful small business, and as far as I know every friend that he had before he became an addict.

He has stolen from his best friend and business partner (amongst others) along with causing them to default on a sizable business loan.

I talked to him several times a week for years. I don't even know if he's alive.


[/ QUOTE ]

Stories like this would be a dime a dozen if heroine and meth were cheap and legal.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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I cant enjoy crystal meth on the weekends in between work, school, and my family.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you can. I know a lot of people who do.

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I can enjoy alcohol every weekend, have a good time, and no one gets hurt.

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...and weed, shrooms, salvia, dex, oxy, opium, acid, e, coke...

You don't know anything about drugs, do you?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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Drug use belongs in this category.

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Drugs don't belong in this category because everything you listed provides much more benefit to individuals and to society than their costs.

What benefits do heroine and crystal meth provide individuals? What benefits do they provide society?

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(I have yet to hear of one good argument for why cannabis should be illegal)


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Im not addressing pot. Im addressing the ridiculous notion that has been stated several times in this thread (by people with no real clue as to what these drugs are capable of) that heroine and crystal meth should be legalized and cheap and made available to all who simply demand it.

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And lastly, the war on drugs hasn't DONE anything useful!

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I agree, I think the war on drugs could be fought in a much different and better way. It almost seems like it is being run by people who likewise have no real life experience with various drugs and their effects.

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P.S. Look at prohibition. Did that accomplish anything useful?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, alcohol is in a completely different category than crystal meth et al.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can enjoy alcohol every weekend, have a good time, and no one gets hurt. I cant enjoy crystal meth on the weekends in between work, school, and my family. Period. Duh. Did you really need that explained or are you playing dumb to make some kind of point?

[/ QUOTE ]
And what about people who can't enjoy alcohol every weekend? Maybe their tolerance for alcohol is lower than yours and their risk of addiction is higher. Does that justify making alcohol illegal for everyone?

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Here's another no brainer. If alcohol became legal to all ages, would underage drinking go up a lot or go down a lot? Big deal? Maybe, but we're not talking about alcohol, you want to legalize all drugs.

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No one here is advocating drugs be legal for all ages, so this is a strawman.

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Its just difficult to argue with people who have never seen a meth or heroine addict and think its noble to fight for a cause to let people exercise their God given rights to ruin their lives and the lives of everyone that loves them and/or depends on them with these drugs - rather than do the sensible thing and try as best as we can as a society to prevent as many people as possible from being lured into these temptations by preemptively eliminating as much supply as possible and making people aware of their effects.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no end to amount of ways in which we can ruin our lives. But the government doesn't legislate all of these away. Take gambling, something you should be familiar with if you're at this site. Gambling can be addictive to some people and they can ruin their lives and hurt their loved ones while gambling. We know this is the case, so why aren't you advocating that gambling be illegal? Maybe the solution should be let people do what they want and try to educate them as best we can about the consequences of their actions. This way, we allow people to keep their freedoms AND help protect them from making life-ruining mistakes.

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Stories like this would be a dime a dozen if heroine and meth were cheap and legal.

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And with the amount of money the gov't is saving by not persuing the drug war, much of it could be spent to prevent such things.

You know, sex has ruined a few people's lives. You can get terrible STDs while trying to engage in sex and can spread them to others, thus ruining their lives. Maybe sex should be illegal? We can just switch to in-vitro fertilization to continue procreating. So why is it that we haven't outlawed sex yet?

To me, you just can't logically hold that some social activites that may cause harm to the consensual users should be illegal while others that also cause harm should not.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's no end to amount of ways in which we can ruin our lives. But the government doesn't legislate all of these away. Take gambling, something you should be familiar with if you're at this site. Gambling can be addictive to some people and they can ruin their lives and hurt their loved ones while gambling. We know this is the case, so why aren't you advocating that gambling be illegal? Maybe the solution should be let people do what they want and try to educate them as best we can about the consequences of their actions. This way, we allow people to keep their freedoms AND help protect them from making life-ruining mistakes.


[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who argues that drugs should be illegal who frequents this particular board has got to be a gigantic hypocrite, since every argument they make can just as easily be applied to gambling. But since gambling is their particular vice, it must be different.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
...and weed, shrooms, salvia, dex, oxy, opium, acid, e, coke...


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Shrooms and acid every weekend. How many weekends in a row until you lost your mind and ended up in a mental institution? (I already know the answer to this question)

Salvia, ox and dex are legal as far as I know.

E I know nothing about.

Ive done my share of coke and dont necessarily have an opinion on it at the moment.

Since you asked

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shrooms and acid every weekend. How many weekends in a row until you lost your mind and ended up in a mental institution? (I already know the answer to this question)

[/ QUOTE ]

How many?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know, sex has ruined a few people's lives. You can get terrible STDs while trying to engage in sex and can spread them to others, thus ruining their lives. Maybe sex should be illegal? We can just switch to in-vitro fertilization to continue procreating. So why is it that we haven't outlawed sex yet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Give it time, my friend.

Just wait until those liberal femi-Nazis join forces with Falwell and his ilk...in a supreme effort to outlaw and condemn all kinds of perversions like the objectification of women, internet pornography, haltertops, Paris Hilton, and the like.

Fear the Femi-Fallwellians.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shrooms and acid every weekend. How many weekends in a row until you lost your mind and ended up in a mental institution? (I already know the answer to this question)

[/ QUOTE ]

How many?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be interested in hearing the answer to this as well.
remids me of the "Perma-frying" post in another thread.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

3 weekends in a row (intraweek use as well) up to half oz per day. Kid lived on my friends floor at UNCW freshman year, one weekend he somehow ended up in upstate New York naked and in the woods, didnt know who he was and he still doesnt. He completely lost his mind for good apparently.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 weekends in a row (intraweek use as well) up to half oz per day. Kid lived on my friends floor at UNCW freshman year, one weekend he somehow ended up in upstate New York naked and in the woods, didnt know who he was and he still doesnt. He completely lost his mind for good apparently.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because we know that every human has exactly the same tolerances for every substance out there... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 weekends in a row (intraweek use as well) up to half oz per day. Kid lived on my friends floor at UNCW freshman year, one weekend he somehow ended up in upstate New York naked and in the woods, didnt know who he was and he still doesnt. He completely lost his mind for good apparently.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, because one person you knew had this happen to them as a result of using this drug, it means that number will apply to most people?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
What benefits do heroine and crystal meth provide individuals? What benefits do they provide society?

[/ QUOTE ]

METH: Increased alertness, athletic ability, attention, weight loss, recreation. It's a schedule II drug (like oxy) which can be prescribed by a doctor, usually under the name desoxyn.

HEROIN: Pain relief, stress relief, recreation. Its precursor, morphine (which heroin immediately converts to when it enters the brain), is widely used in hospitals.

I've never done either, but a lot of people I know have tried one or the other, and the majority just did it once or twice and didn't let it ruin their lives.

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, alcohol is in a completely different category than crystal meth et al.

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This is completely stupid. Alcohol is a recreational drug just like the others, it can massively [censored] you up, it has the same addictive potential as many other drugs (I think opiates are a little worse, but not much. Interestingly, alcohol is one of the few non-opiate drugs where a high-tolerance cold-turkey withdrawal can be fatal). It was the third highest cause of death in 2000, beating out "illicit drug use" by 400% or thereabouts.

And personally, it's a pretty lame drug. Alcohol has the worst after effects of any drug I've ever tried.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 weekends in a row (intraweek use as well) up to half oz per day. Kid lived on my friends floor at UNCW freshman year, one weekend he somehow ended up in upstate New York naked and in the woods, didnt know who he was and he still doesnt. He completely lost his mind for good apparently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have trouble believing as many people have a story similar to this. Did you follow up or was he gone and that's the story you were told? I had a friend of a friend in college "lose his mind due to drug use" but it turns out one thing heavy drug use is not good for is grades. He flunked out, got a job with his dad, and is doing well.

As to the "LSD makes a previously normal person lose their mind" - most neuroscientists disagree with you.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Ive enjoyed shrooms and acid about a dozen times and may enjoy them further down the road. Whether or not they should be legalized, Im on the fence, dont really care and dont think about it much. They arent addictive and even 99% of the idiots who do them regularly know enough to stay inside their homes/safe place when they do them.

Since you asked

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 weekends in a row (intraweek use as well) up to half oz per day.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are so full of [censored]. Half an ounce is 15 cubic centimeters, or about 15 grams (assuming LSD has the same density as water, which isn't too bad). The LD50 of LSD is 12,000 micrograms. Thus half an ounce of LSD is over a thousand times the 50% lethal dose, and would kill you immediately.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
Salvia, ox and dex are legal as far as I know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oxy has the same legal status as meth. Dex is totally legal, which is amusing considering how powerful it is. Salvia is now illegal in two states (Louisiana and Missouri), and will probably be outlawed federally within two years. They passed a bill to outlaw it in 2002, but couldn't because there are no signs that it's dangerous and no one's ever really screwed themself up with it.

[ QUOTE ]
Shrooms and acid every weekend. How many weekends in a row until you lost your mind and ended up in a mental institution? (I already know the answer to this question)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I retract. Acid and e I'd say should not be used on a "regular" basis, if only for the fact that they are truly amazing (and imho, almost sacred) experiences that should only be done once in a while. But there are those who do, and I think they're as nuts as people who get drunk every weekend.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't want to do any drug every weekend (except maybe weed [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]). I think it would make drugs get boring pretty quickly.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

I'm pretty sure he was talking about shrooms. No one's takingn half an ounce of acid.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

lol, Borodog, what did you just look that up or something? Either way by assuming I meant acid when referring to half an oz, youve made it clear you have no real life experience or knowledge with drugs whatsoever.

I completely agree with your abstract economic models that show equilibrium and demand and supply and prices yada yada yada. I completely disagree with your head in the clouds logic that more use of heroine, crystal meth, and PCP is a desirable thing for individuals, neighborhoods, and society.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
I completely disagree with your head in the clouds logic that more use of heroine, crystal meth, and PCP is a desirable thing for individuals, neighborhoods, and society.

[/ QUOTE ]
Another strawman (if I understand Borodog's position). The actual use may or may not be a "desirable" (no subjectivity there [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]) thing for society, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol, Borodog, what did you just look that up or something? Either way by assuming I meant acid when referring to half an oz, youve made it clear you have no real life experience or knowledge with drugs whatsoever.

I completely agree with your abstract economic models that show equilibrium and demand and supply and prices yada yada yada. I completely disagree with your head in the clouds logic that more use of heroine, crystal meth, and PCP is a desirable thing for individuals, neighborhoods, and society.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with your head in the clouds logic that government should restrict anything which can lead individuals to do harm to themselves (intentional strawman here).

Wait, you actually don't think that. You are arbitrarily designating which substances/activites individuals should not be allowed to possess/engage in, while at the same time allowing other self-destructive substances/activities. This makes no sense.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Riddick, it's not about the drugs, it's about freedom. That's the whole point. Yes, there's a little danger, but I'd rather live in a society where bob the neighbor is allowed to buy a gram of ice at the store than a society where violent criminals market the same stuff.

Also, I don't see why people think that just because a drug becomes legal, everyone's going to do it. I don't think legalizing heroin will make people who wouldn't otherwise do it say "hey, let's go shoot up!" There are a lot of drugs out there that are legal that people don't do because they realize that, despite their legality, they're still drugs, they're still potent substances, and maybe they're not for them.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

(last post on this thread)

hmk,

My two dissenting opinions:

As a rather libertarian minded thinker at heart, I am still willing to make sacrifices so that my State can protect me (Patriot Act for example, as I have no problem getting searched head to freakin toe before getting on a plane, as I expect everyone else to be since there is nothing to hide) Drugs are another, and here is why

#2 - Normal people dont say "hey lets shoot up this weekend!", but tragic things happen to normal people who then no longer think "normally" or "rationally". If normal Joe just lost his son to juvenile cancer thats gonna be a tough time, but normal Joe doesnt know any drug dealers and never has - enter the problem: now otherwise normal Joe is tempted to stroll into his local store and induce some euphoria to ease his pain - uh-oh, it consumed his life now and ruined himself and his whole once normal family. Then throw in the other side, youthful experimentation. I even once asked my regular dealer if he came across any meth or mescaline to let me know, out of sheer idiotic curiosity. Had I been able to stroll into my store and "check it out" one weekend since its legal, who knows, theres a chance it could have consumed my life (goodbye job/school, girlfriend, friends, family, etc) Fortunately for me, there was no "supply" to be found so I stuck with the weed.

I see and understand the two main angles - the ill-fought "drug war" and the freedom from state issue, but I and probably most Americans are comfortable sacrificing the $$$ spent, the lowlifes who resort to dealing, and the freedom to keep the supply as limited as humanly possible.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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Your examples are awful. Rape is not victimless. Recreational drug use is.


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Having seen two friends' lives consumed and ultimately ended by heroin, and their families' lives destroyed in the process, this is the most clueless, ignorant statement I've read on this board to date.

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This asinine argument is unfortunately used all too often when the issue of drug prohibition is discussed.

You're simply redefining what "victimless" means. The way you're using it means "other people are unhappy that you do it." That may be true but they are not victims the way a murder or rape victim is a victim.

If you want to include a defintion of "non-victimless" crime that includes self-destructive or family-destructive behaviour that makes your family unhappy, you'll need to criminalize a lot more than just drug use.

Or are you actually advocating that we go back to Prohibition, because after all, there are plenty of people whose lives are "consumed and ultimately ended by alcohol and their families' lives destroyed in the process".

Replace alcohol with any kind of self-destructive behaviour. Everquest addictions (see eqdailygrind.blogspot.com for a fascinating read), gambling, poker, overeating, smoking, compulsive shopping, working long hours, mountain climbing obsessions, adultery, you name it.

Rape and other vicious crimes are direct acts of violence perpetrated against another person. Drug use is a personal choice, albeit at time foolish and self-destructive one but it is by definition victimless.

natedogg

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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As a rather libertarian minded thinker at heart, I am still willing to make sacrifices so that my State can protect me

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This statment is contradictory. How can someone who claims to be "rather libertarian" (Note the "Liberty" part of that word) also claim that they have no problem forcing others to have less liberty?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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As a rather libertarian minded thinker at heart


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Ummm... I don't think that word means what you think it means.

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I and probably most Americans are comfortable sacrificing the $$$ spent, the lowlifes who resort to dealing, and the freedom to keep the supply as limited as humanly possible.

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As I've mentioned before, if you're not yet furious about the drug war you are just ignorant. You're willing to sacrifice money and freedom to limit the supply?

The SUPPLY IS NOT LIMITED! Supply has gone up during the drug war. Anyone who want to get high on any kind of drug you can think of can get it more easily than alcohol. Your obscene war on drugs has not only eroded our rights and freedoms, and destroyed countless lives unnecessarily, but it has also UTTERLY FAILED to achieve its goals. Supply is up, drug profits are high, users abound, and the war churns on.

You people who ignorantly support this insanity are to blame. It's a disgrace and future generations will view our drug war as one of the blackest marks in our history.

natedogg

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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As a rather libertarian minded thinker at heart, I am still willing to make sacrifices so that my State can protect me

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This statment is contradictory. How can someone who claims to be "rather libertarian" (Note the "Liberty" part of that word) also claim that they have no problem forcing others to have less liberty?

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That'd not at all contradictory. The word "rather" would mean he has a tendency towards libertarianism. I don't think anyone in that movement agrees with no government whatsoever.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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As a rather libertarian minded thinker at heart, I am still willing to make sacrifices so that my State can protect me

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This statment is contradictory. How can someone who claims to be "rather libertarian" (Note the "Liberty" part of that word) also claim that they have no problem forcing others to have less liberty?

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That'd not at all contradictory. The word "rather" would mean he has a tendency towards libertarianism. I don't think anyone in that movement agrees with no government whatsoever.

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Here's the definition of libertarian from dictionary.com:
lib·er·tar·i·an Audio pronunciation of "libertarian" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-târ-n)
n.

1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
2. One who believes in free will.

To believe as fervently as he does that drugs should be illegal moves more towards maximizing the role of the state and minimizing individual rights. Thus his opinion is anti-thetical to the concept of libertarianism.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

I wasn't referring to his thoughts on drugs, just what you quoted him saying specifically.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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I wasn't referring to his thoughts on drugs, just what you quoted him saying specifically.

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Then I should have been more specific. In the context of this thread, considering his position on the legality of drugs, his statement was contradictory.