Re: AA
 

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He never said she was passive. He said she was a little too passive. Maybe he should explain what that means. To me it means she plays aggressively, but misses a lot of bets.

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I know what you are getting at, and yet I think you are contorting the language here. Aggressivity is a continuum, where "too passive" indicates a tendency in one direction, which is imperfectly, but fairly, abbreviated as "passive" -- beyond that, I agree the original speaker has to say. Note that you are arguing on a different front than the OP, whose opinion is not that she isn't passive, but that her behaviour in the hand with AQ isn't particularly aggressive.

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Certainly there is a big distinction between preflop/flop aggression and turn/river aggression, and that one can give action on the small streets but be passive enough on the big streets such that raises are indicative of a much narrower range of hands. If that range is narrow enough, that is a turn/river raise is almost never less than 2-pair, I would consider that player too passive.

Re: AA
 

Then, at the outset, you need to tell us she is aggressive preflop and on the flop but doesn't give action on big bet streets without a big hand, rather than persist that "too passive" should be read "is aggressive preflop and on the flop but doesn't give action on big bet streets".

That's my opinion. Posts where information seeps out and context is added as needed to bolster hero's line annoy me.

But again, why ask the forum for comments on something so idiosyncratic and hinging on information unknown to the forum? Obviously you know the river play is perfect given the constraints you've placed on this person. The other streets are reasonable, I'm kind of partial to turn raises and 3-bets where I like my hand so much, but so be it.

Re: AA
 

I just took your read in context and came up with "too passive for a 40 game in Atlantic City" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] But I still don't see how she raises with a hand you are beating. If that is anywhere in the range I would rather check/call then bet/fold.

Re: AA
 

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Then, at the outset, you need to tell us she is aggressive preflop and on the flop but doesn't give action on big bet streets without a big hand, rather than persist that "too passive" should be read "is aggressive preflop and on the flop but doesn't give action on big bet streets".

That's my opinion. Posts where information seeps out and context is added as needed to bolster hero's line annoy me.

But again, why ask the forum for comments on something so idiosyncratic and hinging on information unknown to the forum? Obviously you know the river play is perfect given the constraints you've placed on this person. The other streets are reasonable, I'm kind of partial to turn raises and 3-bets where I like my hand so much, but so be it.

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Fair enough. I'm inclined to think, however, that my characterization of "too passive" is common to the point of default in live play. Maybe you disagree.

As for the river, I don't think it's perfect, but I think it's right, and it's not because of my prior experience with her so much as what Max was saying. That is, when the river goes bet/call I'm a favorite. When it goes bet/raise or check/bet I'm toast.

EDIT: Obviously, I think I'm a favorite when it goes check/check too.

Re: AA
 

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HU for 11.25 BBs. Turn is the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet, she calls.

River is the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check, she bets, I fold.

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FYP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Based on your description, there is no way she has JJ or AK (EDIT: or AQ).

Re: AA
 

You don't want to take credit for playing the river perfectly as you suggest any other way is less profitable. How is this not more word games? I'd wish you luck, but you clearly don't need any with the control you have over your opponents. Just be careful when you read their minds that they haven't misread their hands.

Re: AA
 

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HU for 11.25 BBs. Turn is the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet, she calls.

River is the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check, she bets, I fold.

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FYP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Based on your description, there is no way she has JJ or AK (EDIT: or AQ).

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Unfortunately, we can't check-fold this river unless we're positive she doesn't bet AA.

Re: AA
 

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You don't want to take credit for playing the river perfectly as you suggest any other way is less profitable. How is this not more word games? I'd wish you luck, but you clearly don't need any with the control you have over your opponents. Just be careful when you read their minds that they haven't misread their hands.

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You seem to have some sort of beef with me. I don't quite understand why. I think I've made a serious attempt to curtail the smarm I usually use to post, but whatever. Thanks for not wishing me misfortune.

Re: AA
 

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You don't want to take credit for playing the river perfectly as you suggest any other way is less profitable. How is this not more word games? I'd wish you luck, but you clearly don't need any with the control you have over your opponents. Just be careful when you read their minds that they haven't misread their hands.

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I will go out on a limb and say that he played the river perfectly and I'm happy to be proven wrong.

He is not going to make any profit on money he puts in to the pot on the river, but he will lose less by betting than by checking and calling.

The only time he should check is if she is so passive that she will check behind with most of her hands that aren't the nuts.

Re: AA
 

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You don't want to take credit for playing the river perfectly as you suggest any other way is less profitable. How is this not more word games? I'd wish you luck, but you clearly don't need any with the control you have over your opponents. Just be careful when you read their minds that they haven't misread their hands.

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You seem to have some sort of beef with me. I don't quite understand why. I think I've made a serious attempt to curtail the smarm I usually use to post, but whatever. Thanks for not wishing me misfortune.

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Dave, I don't think it's a beef with you personally. I've talked about this hand with a few people and every one of us has said check-call -- she's got AA or KK -- given the read you provided. You've given us information after the fact that literally makes it impossible for us to disagree with your river play, because the read you gave (she can have AQ, will only raise KK, and will bet AA if checked to) makes your best river play obviously the best both mathematically and logically. Basically you've constructed a situation in which it's impossible to argue the proper play on the river, due to your read, which since we weren't there, we can't disagree with. Which makes this hand kinda worthless to post, because what's the point of posting a hand where you've constructed the variables in such a way where there is only one proper mathematical play and you took it?

Hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, you know I like you but if you think she can have AQ and will bet AA on the river you know that bet-folding is the right play and there's no way around it. Which makes the whole hand kinda moot.

Rob

Re: AA
 

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Unfortunately, we can't check-fold this river unless we're positive she doesn't bet AA.

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Yeah, I realized that after.

Re: AA
 

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I will go out on a limb and say that he played the river perfectly and I'm happy to be proven wrong.

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How can anyone disagree provided the constraint his opponent will call but never bet with worse hands and only raise better hands and holds either AQ, AA, or KK?

Change one thing, say, she needs her AQ sooted to give this action early, and there is only 1 hand he beats on the river (AcQc) and should check. Or, give her the free will to put him on AQ and trust her own read with AK, or give her KQ and the same conviction -- I mean, he doesn't have AA, right? Don't get me wrong, I think she rivered the best hand, but if she would occasionally bet AK or AA when checked to or could have KQ and would do the same, it all makes the river a check.

I've learned to tread a bit lightly around how well I understand my opponents. I've read them perfectly, when they've misread their hands. And other times, they've done things I thought so out of character, that I don't know to this day what got into them.

And if it is the case that her likely holdings are AA or KK, hero needs to check the river.

Re: AA
 

It would be very un-2+2-like, but I couldn't cap the flop and I check and call the turn and river because I see her as only having one of the following: AA, KK, QQ, TT. I'd say KK and QQ are equally likely and TT is maybe half as likely. AA (obviously, is the most unlikely of all).

But, if I took your line, her flat call on the turn scares the Bejeezus out of me. She wants you to flush or do something stupid (like bet on the river with AA).
I'm pretty sure she has you beat from the flop and it just got better on the turn. And then, your only hope (that she has KK) evaporates on the river. Check/Fold or check/call if you really think she might have the other AA. I'm pretty sure you'll be looking at Queens full.

Re: AA
 

Since when can you 5 bet at the Borgata in a betting round that is not heads up?

no chance of AK?
 

She has position on you, why couldn't she 4 bet the flop with AsKx? I see no point in betting the river. None. Looks like a clear CC.

I never play higher than 30-60. Is there some reason for the river bet other than she may lay down a better hand or call with a worse one?

Re: AA
 

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Andy, certainly you must have a number of players you see again and again where you know they aren't raising the river without a hand that beats Aces, regardless of how crazy/dumb/aggressive their opponent is.

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You don't have aces, sir, you have two pair, using a pocket overpair, with a K kicker. Terrible river play.

TSP

Re: no chance of AK?
 

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She has position on you, why couldn't she 4 bet the flop with AsKx? I see no point in betting the river. None. Looks like a clear CC.

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hmm, so u think AK is plenty likely, but you see no reason to bet the river?
how about value?

Re: AA
 

Its head up when the 4th bet went in, so there is no cap.

-ActionBob

Re: AA
 

I dont like the river bet. Her hand range is pretty small given the description you gave, and I think that queens full raises the turn, as well as tens full. I dont think she's holding either one of these hands when she just calls the turn, because, you advertised that you would raise, raise, raise on the flop, so, with a full house I think she gets into a rasing war on the turn, too. Then I'm left thinking she doesnt have QQ or 10-10, so she must have AA or KK. AA less likely, but still possible. I'm checking a K on this river because given the action I see KK as her most likely hand. I'm still calling a river bet because I dont like putting that much action in PF and on the flop and folding to one bet on the river. I might be right that she has K's full, but she's going to have to show me at this point. Check/call, and knuckle the table when she shows you AA, and thank Mr. Variance when she flips up the nuts. The only other hand I even considered was AsJs, but I cant see a passive player playing a gutshot royal that fast. But then again some players get absolutely giddy about a royal flush draw. I'd say KK 80% QQ 10% 10-10 8% and quads/royal 2% in this situation.






Tex

Re: no chance of AK?
 

hmm, you value bet the river because she *might* have a hand you can beat, but *probably* not? Show me where I said "plenty" likely.

The possibility she could have AK (or even less likely KQ) justifies a check-call instead of a check-fold. Betting the river is spewing. If she does have AK you probably still get the same one big bet from her with a check call.

Re: AA
 

agreed, i give her set of Q's here most likely.. possibly 10's. good laydown.

Re: AA
 

I would wager that shemp's issue is one that Paluka raised a while back.

People post live hands where they make iffy plays, ask for questions, and then explain their play based on a very specific read. While it's potentially interesting, it's not terribly informative for other players, nor can we be of much help without having the same read.

I have a really hard time wanting to put any money into this pot on the river, but christ is it big and I couldn't not check/call.

(fwiw I've met Dave and talk with shemp a lot on IRC and they're both awesome people who should like hug and stuff)